Should English be the language of love?

I welcome this challenge. I am British by birth and married a Russian woman (Svetlana) in May 2010. We had already decided that my wife should learn English and it has and still remains our intention for her to take further lessons in the uk. Where better to learn English than in a country where she will hear it every day.

Unfortunately on my return to the UK after our marriage I was made redundant so we delayed the application until I found a new job. Of course by that time this requirement had been introduced.

My wife continued her lessons and took a test at "Expert Language Schools" in KaIiningrad. We never even thought that it would need to be taken at an approved centre and the so called immigration expert we took advice and assistance from, at considerable expense I might add, never told us about it until 1 hour before Svetlana was due at the visa centre in Moscow.

Needless to say her visa was refused because her B1 certificate was not issued by an approved centre. The only place in Kaliningrad that is approved to issue a certificate only supports the IELTS test. In March 2011 my wife sat the exam following some tuition. Since her previous test her use of English has been limited and she achieved an overall band score of 4.

At the time the UKBA website Approved Partner list stated that grade 4 was sufficient. However now the new list states for IELTS the minimum is grade 4 in all disciplines and my wife did not achieve grade 4 in all parts.

Her work commitments which involve long hours ( at least 10 per day) with only 1 day off for low pay make it impossible for her to take further tuition in order to sit the exam again.

We are effectively denied the right to be a family because of this rule. My wife is discriminated against on the grounds of language, I am discriminated against because I fell in love with and married a woman who is from a non english speaking country.

We looked for all options but are blocked every step of the way. We considered a family visit visa, where I could support my wife during her stay in the UK and we would enroll her on an English language course. Then she would return to Russia and make another application but, theres always a but, it is not permitted for my wife to study English or anything else while on a family visit or tourist visa.

In the conservative pre-election waffle Mr Cameron made a great deal about his views on sanctity of marriage and family values. This rule makes an absolute mockery of his views. It effectively prevents people such as myself and my wife from living together as a family.

The ECHR Articles 8 and 14 are most definitely breached by this rule however I am sure the government will have an answer such as it can only be applied to EU citizens and as such non EU citizens cannot invoke it.

In my view ECHR articles 8 and 14 should apply to all regardless of their home nation.

On a daily basis I meet EU citizens who can barely understand a word of English, yet they are permitted to freely enter and seek work, what about the need for integration with them.

This rule is ludicrous, the majority of couples who are affected by this rule have every intention of learning English and studying for The Knowledge of Life in The UK in order to apply for ILR. A better solution would be to make enrollment on an English language course once in the UK a condition of the visa.

Hi,

I am a strong advocate of people learning English before they are granted a visa on the ground that is a preventative measure on forced marriages. But as I read many of these comments, i need to rethink my position. It is so hard to craft a law to protect vulnerable people and at the same time craft a law that does not create difficult or almost impossible hurdles for genuine love relationships. Thanks for this forum.

Tim

Further ineteresting comments. Tim I agree the need to learn English is a sound idea in principle and regardless of any law/rules it has always been and continues to be mine and my wifes intention for her to take further English lessons should she be granted a visa. As it is my intention to continue to learn Russian, my wifes native language. This rule is a punitive measure on genuine married couples and the government should accept that they have got it wrong. Not in as much as that spouses should learn English but in its implementation. Making it a condition of being granted a visa allows genuine couples to be together and the fees for the courses would be a benefit to the UK economy, not a huge benefit but a benefit all the same.

Allen, your comment gives pause for thought. Firstly any UK citizen deliberately ignoring a law or engaging in racist or discriminatory acts would, I have no doubt, be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It also raises a further question. All the genuine couples who have paid the substantial fee and been refused a spouse visa will be forced to pay the fee again should this rule be overturned. In my mind all refusals based on this rule should be addressed again either free of charge or at a reduced rate and in a shorter time frame.

As it stands now I have been supporting two homes since I married in May 2010 and it has seriously impacted on the savings I had put aside to bring my wife to the UK.

However in the end the government is a law unto itself and will continue to ignore the elctorate, be they in a minority or a majority. Four judges ruled against the home secretary yet this rule remains in force and I am sure if the latest challenge is successful the Government will continue to ignore the law.

Maybe a compromise should be sought, I would suggest the granting of a visa that allows a spouse to study English in the UK with an option to switch to a spouse visa, from within the Uk, should they make the grade within a specific amount of time.

I believe genuine couples would welcome such a compromise.

Lionel if you read the media reports on the UKBA you find a horror story. They had employees who were BNP members. The UKBA appointed a Head of Investigations who was found to be a con man and was jailed for 18 months. They had a whisle blower who said UKBA employees enjoyed tricking applicants so they could reject them. Anyone in a UKBA office who granted a visa had a 'golly' put on their desk. The UKBA's own Independent Inspector said the UKBA was too 'money minded'. Under the previous Govt and the Coalition UKBA / Home Office Managers have received £10,000 annual bonuses! The UKBA is not regulauted like the Police who have the IPCC. The UKBA are a Law unto themselves and their bosses the Home Sec and Immigration Minister. Their only check is the current EU and UK law which the UK Senior Judge Lord Judge stated in MARCH 2011 THAT EURO COURT RULINGS ARE THE LAW. LORD JUDGE WENT ONTO SAY ''BRITISH JUDGES MUST FOLLOWTHE DECISIONS SET DOWN IN STRASBOURG - NO MORE NO LESS! That is all the UK has to stop the activities of a dicscriminatory and racist Home Secretary, Home Office and UKBA.
Who is going to prosecute the Home Secretary for breaking the Law which she started to do over one year ago? In fact the only option is a Court action and we are currently waiting the outcome of the Case taken in Birmingham on 26 & 27 July 2011. I cannot afford a Court Action ans Legal Aid has now been stopped - why? To stop any future challenges!

Dera Rod I am very sorry to read you had to leave your UK job and go to Brazil because of this Home Office English test regulation. Note this is not UK or EU LAW - it is only a Home Office regulation - but NOT UK LAW!
The truth is that you do have a right to live in the UK if you are a British national and you have a right to have your wife live with you in your UK home. The Home Secretary wants you to think you do not have a right but you do. It is only if you have not got a home in the UK and you rely on public funds for support that there becomes a problem.
But if you had a job and you provided for and your wife with a home and supported her then under ECHR Article 8 your home was legally in the UK and you have a right to live there with your wife. ECHR Article 8 is UK Law it is the Home Secretary who is ignoring it.
Both the UKBA and my own MP tried to tell me I could move to Thailand. But I found out on the internet that I have every right to stay and live in the UK - and my wife has the right to live with me in the UK.
The Home Secretary has been criticised by four UK Judges for implementing unlawfull English tests and you have been misled into going to Brazil.
This is really bad because you have been deprieved of your home in the UK. You have been mislead into leaving against you and your wife's will and to leave - assuming you both wanted to stay in the UK.
You are correct that being alone we have no chance but if we communicate with each other and band together then we become a body. Also collectively we have a stronger case and it may be that as a group we come together to take a legal class action against the Home Secretary.
My email address is allanledwith@hotmail.com - I am with you Rod - I invite others to join.

You are quite correct Rex and that was what the Matrix Law Firm Rabinder Singh QC ( now Judge Rabinder Singh QC ) report recommended to Liberty in Sept 2010.
The reaction by the Home Office was to rush in the new English regulations on 29 Nov 2010 without any consultation.
The reason is it is all about limiting numbers of migrants. But only for non EU migrants which makes it discriminatory racist and in breach of the UK 1976 UK Race Relations Act.
The test questions are loaded. The test is computerised and time limited. Its designed to fail applications not pass them. The fee is now £130 and a sample test fee is £28.
The test has to be taken at specified test facilities - even in the UK.
The test has been declared 'unlawful' by four Judges and the Home Secretary was criticised by Lord Justice Sullivan as trying to 'side step' Parliamentary scrutiny and that her attempt was unlawful!
The test is in direct breach of UK and EU Law under the ECHR Articles 8 and 14 to which the UK has been a signatory of for the last 60 years! Thus we have a breach in British democracy and freedom because UK citizens are being denied their Legal Rights to a Family Life!

I have received a reply from my MP. I wrote to voice my disgust that Svetlana's application had failed on a technicality. She took English lessons in good faith, all be it at an unapproved centre. Her results graded her at level B1. I also made a point of mentioning the number of EU citizens I come across daily who don't even have the slightest knowledge of English. Basically it was a "Sorry can't help you" sort of reply. My personal opinion is my MP can't help because it is not politically beneficial to help. Had I written about the Green Issue or something similar I am sure he would find a way to grab the limelight and raise the issue.

There are two threads appearing in these comments. 1. The initial English certificate required currently at the minimum A1 level. 2. The Knowledge of Life in The UK test which needs to be passed to gain ILR. I tried a sample test for the Knowledge of Life in The UK and as a British Citizen since birth I could not answer some of the questions.

My wife sat the IELTS test and achieved grade 4 overall, now the rules seem to have been changed without warning and grade 4 in all disciplines is required. The UKBA website states an applicant needs grade A1 in speaking and listening however if an applicant sits the IELTS test they are expected to achieve B1 as a minimum which covers all 4 disciplines.

To make a point my wife achieved grade 3.0 in speaking 3.5 in reading, 4.5 in listening and 4.5 in writing. If it is believed A1 in speaking and reading is sufficient surely the higher scores in listening and writing indicate that an applicant is making a concerted effort to learn English.

The UK Government seem to overlook that moving to a new country that does not speak your native language is not a decision anyone takes lightly. Demonstrating a willingness to learn English should be taken into consideration should an applicants results be marginal. With a partners support the learning of a new language is much less daunting.

A group challenge seems a good idea, individually the expense of taking legal action is cost prohibitive particularly when the majority of people who fall foul of this rule are forced to support two homes in separate countries. Sorry to say most people will assume it is only the male in the relationship that provides support but increasingly in todays economy it also falls on the female in the relationship. Those who do not provide support for their partners in some form or another are the very people who are trying to cheat the system with false relationships.

I am sorry in advance if anybody feels offended by the last comment, it is not my intention to offend, believe me when I say I empathise with anyone in a genuine relationship who is being discriminated against with this rule.

The UKBA can stipulate what they like because they are operating the uncontrolled policy of the Home Secretary T May and the Immigration Minister D Green. The test they have introduced is the Pearson Test for which the fee is £130 per test take as often as you can afford to pay and the sample test is £28 per test. This test is computerised to be taken at specified Pearson test centres world wide takes 45 mins per test sitting in front of a computer. Sample questions 'how many catholics in England & what is the traffic speed on a single lane carriage way''. It is a money maker as Dell Boy would say a nice little earner!
Many established english language test authorities consider the test isn't about ability or passing applicants its about failing applicants! Reason to keep down non EU immigrants because they cannot control EU immigrants! Especially East European immigrants.
This is why the test has been declared unlawful by four Judges and why the Home Secretary has been criticised for trying to 'side step' Parliamentary scrutiny. The Home Secretary cannot put her policy before Parliament because it breaches ECHR Articles 8 and 14 and the UK Race Relations Act of 1976.This is what is disgraceful that UK Law is being undermined.
Everyone needs to do their research and learn the facts otherwise its peeing in the wind!

You probably all read in the press the case of Mrs Chapti from Leicester England who wanted to bring her husband from India that was taken to the Court in Birmingham by No5 Chambers on 26 & 27 July 2011. The Daily Mail made a lot of it to increase their circulation. I have not read of the result of that case. But I have been informed that it is due to be linked with another similiar case to be taken to the High Court in October 2011 so we need to wait and see.
Angel - your situation - I understand that the matter of English language students has already been taken to Court in July 2010 and 'English UK' had won their case in a High Court Judicial Review heard by Mr Justice Foskett. I suggest you contact the 'English UK' Organisation which is for English Language Students for information. You may be an ACCA student but the English UK just may be able to advise you. Its worth a try. This case was reported in the Guardian by Mx de Lotbiniere on 13 July 2010 and the Chief Exec of English UK is Mr Tony Millns - thats according to the info I have in my files. Good luck keep us informed.

Hi all,

I too have similar problem with this English test crap. I am a British citizen, my wife is Moroccan and now we are stuck, we can't get together because she has to set this test. Now, as mentioned above by some comments it is very difficult to get a good grip of the language if you don't use it on a daily basis. My wife is having bad dreams about English back in Morocco and she started to hate the language after she had fallen in love with it before, and she is panicking about all these exams and maze of tests and materials she has to read through. Furthermore, she has to wait till November to get a slot for her test and travel 800Km away from home to set the test and the results will appear two months after setting the test and the final certificate will follow a month later in total 3 months before we can begin any process of applying for visa, which will cost us even more money. I totally agree with Allan we should fight this discrimination together till it is removed. No we do not have to leave the UK, where we made our homes, work, friends and relatives. We will become more powerful if we act together. Who knows we might hold a massive wedding party as a celebration if we get this unjust decision removed.

Hello everyone. I have been following the case of the eviction of the Travellers at Basildon. Yesterday they announced they had won support from the UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION on HUMAN RIGHTS in regard to DISCRIMINATION AGAINST THEM!
Its a fact that UK NATIONALS with NON EU SPOUSES have been DISCRIMINATED AGAINST and subjected to RACISM BY THE UK GOVERNMENT in the matter of the IMPOSITION OF UKBA ENGLISH LANGUAGE TESTS FOR THE SPOUSES OF UK NATIONALS.
I have written to my own MP, Shadow Home Sec and numerous othe MPs with no joy. But I think we as UK Nationals who have had our HUMAN RIGHTS BREACHED and which the UK JUDICIARY HAVE RULED AS UNLAWFUL have a just case.
I am asking a friend of mine who has a web site and has jounalistic experience to have a look at the UN HIGH COMMISSION for HUMAN RIGHTS website because from what I have read there it is possible to make INDIVIDUAL COMPLAINTS about HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS - which we have been subjected to by this UK Coalition Govt.
What I have in mind is that we all write a complaint to the UN HIGH COMMISSION individually but simultaneously with a STANDARD COVERING LETTER then adding details of our INDIVIDUAL CASES.
It strikes me it is all very well for PM Cameron to go to Europe Spouting Human Rights for the world but riding roughshod over the HUMAN RIGHTS of our own UK CITIZENS!
WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? CAN YOU SEE ANY PROBLEMS? IS IT FEASABLE? DO YOU AGREE WE MAKE A COLLECTIVE STAND? YOUR REACTIONS AND INPUT PLEASE?

Hello Lionel thanks for your input we will wait and give others to make their comments because we want as many as possible. I think we need to emphasise that PM Cameron and the UK Govt may preach Human Rights but they fail to practise it when they apply it to its own UK nationals and their spouses. Can I ask you if you can work on a basic standard cover letter that we can all use for the opening page to which we then add the facts and documents concerning our own individual cases.
Then we all identify as being part of this group in our opening page covering letter but we add our own personal details and case history for information to the UN Human Rights Commission.
Perhaps we should have a title such as 'UK Nationals Human Rights Victims' - that IDs us as a Group. Because as a Group I think we will have more impact and that is out problem statistically we are a minority as far as voters are concerned. If we were a bigger group we would have more of an impact with MPs and the Govt. But they can afford to ignore us. However what the UK public should consider is a breach of Human Rights of one British national is a breach of the Human Rights of ALL British nationals. Regetably the British tend to be very insular and racism is incited in many of the red top popular press to sell copies!
Please everyone make your input to this matter as 'British Victims og Human Rights Abuse'!

Hi, just to put my two peneth worth in. May I respectfully remind you that in the UK we have a monachy and as such if you were born in this country you are a British Subject. Just something that the goverment and people seem to forget. I am a british subject and I am married to a Chinese national. My wife who lives in southern China is finding it both difficult to learn English and the only school she can get to is prohibative in terms of financial costs. So as you can see it is also disciminant against Chinese people as well. If like my wife you live off the visitors routes it is very difficult. My concern is the current prime minister speaking on television indicating he wants to dismiss the human rights act. Obviously because it is causing this coalition ( which was not voted for ) problems both in the courts and the latest riots. The travellers have rights and yet we are seeing them being ignored. My question to you all is when or how are people in the UK and imigrants going to be able to stop the UK Government from rail roading infringments of peoples rights. If the government is just ignoring the law because it suites them then it is not suprising that young people in the riots also ignored the laws of the land. They have a government in power doing the same thing what an example. I am law abiding and so should the government. I do not have the luxury of being able to flaunt the laws because I would end up paying the penalty for such actions. best regards Chris
best regards Chris

Alan ledwith,
I have also sent a long email to my local MP saying why the new languagec test is so unfair . and suggesting some amendmensts if the UK government will not repeal the unfair law He has been good enough to send the letter to the Home Office . I will show a copy of my email to my MP on this site preservbing his identity of course IF I do not get a reasonable response from the Home Office . The more people who write to their MPs complaining about the very unfair law the better even though it is unlikely to produce results -, can but try ! It is a pity we do not all live near each other as then a petition couild be organised as it might have more effect as indivisduals are often ignored .

Alan,

My letter writing skills fall far short of a level where I could write an acceptable cover letter maybe somebody else on here could oblige or suggest a suitable basic wording.

I've searched the rules for many countries regarding any requirements for people to learn the relevant native language prior to being granted a visa for settlement. If my research is correct this pre-entry requirement is not equalled in any other European country. Many people cite Germany as requiring applicants to have a basic knowledge of their language however if I have read everything correctly other European countries grant a visa and make it a condition that a particular level of the language is achieved within 6 months.

I think this would be a much fairer and more achievable condition as it is much easier to learn a new language when it is heard spoken on a daily basis. My wife, being Russian, living and working in Russia does not hear English spoken at all in her everyday life and I am sure it is the same for the majority of non-eu spouses.

I will be writing to my MP again aswell as the Home Secretary. Sadly I have not received any response from the PM's office. Perhaps re-addressing it to Nick Clegg will illicit a response.

fafauk I have been dealing with this situation since January 2011. I have been to my MP who wrote to the Home Office who wrote back to him who copied me. The letter was full of 'bull' and it demonstrated just how divisive misleading and obstructive these bureacrats are. They are being paid public money to be like this and they have been given £10,000 annual bonuses for doing a 'good' job. So I think we all share your frustration.
The only UK body who have made a stand against the Home Secs policy is the Judiciary. But they are being undermined by Cameron wanting his Bill of Rights to replace the ECHR.
Remember four Judges have already ruled the new UKBA English tests are UNLAWFUL and they have advised the Home Sec to abandon her policy. But she will not!
Instead the withdrew funding to the Immigration Advisory Service and put them out of business!
So we are up against this Govt and remember this policy they inherited from the previous Govt which is why the Shadow Home Sec will not challenged the Govt Home Sec in Parliament.
My MP has been flannelling me since Feb 2011 and qwhen I ask him about my Human Rights under ECHR Article 8 he goes deaf. I have told him he is neither a Liberal nor a Democrat so I'm in his bad books. So if you have any ideas how to be more 'pro active' lets hear them please? Remember they do have to be legal - you can't bring back Guy Fawkes OK!

fafauk - I read your post and I am with you, and the others, 100%. I am also as frustrated as everyone else. I am a retired Logistics & Transport Manager with middle east and far east experience. So I am not by nature a letter writer. I just do my best. I live in Essex and my wife is Thai. We have a condominium in Thailand so I can go visit and stay whenever I want.
I will attempt a covering letter if everyone will understand I am not a journalist and writer but I appreciate the problems all you folks have. As UK nationals you shouldn't be in this I know.
If you all go on the UN HIGH COMMISSION COMMITTEE on the ELIMINATION of RACIAL DICRIMINATION website you will find the procedures for making a complaint and the address in GENEVA SWITZERLAND. If enough UK Nationals write in that will embarrass the Coalition Govt just the same as the handing over of prisoners to Libyan torturers and the Dale Farm situation will show the UK isn't democratic or liberal in its trearment of the NON EU SPOUSES OF UK NATIONALS. Eeveryone can take out or add to this covering letter as they wish. I have three arch lever folders. Two are full of hard copy of press articles about the UKBA / our situation. I will refer to these articles in 'our' covering letter which all may check, remove, add to as they wish OK.
If anyone has any comments please advise because we need input from ALL is that OK?
Just give me time I WILL GIVE IT MY BEST. But I have the dentist and a hospital appointment to occupy my time - as well as a Thai wife who emails me four times a day! allan

of course I agree with everything you say except to stress that it is not about RACIAL discrimination but simply about DISCRIMINATION and bias against citizens who are not fortunate enough to be on one of the exemption lists which includes visa applicants from countries where english is supposedly widely spoken or where there are not test centres . So certain applicants are punished simply because of an accident of birth which is outrageous. In my situation and as an older person , my fiancee is from Russia where they have the CYRILLIC alphabet which makes it much more difficult to learn English ,especially for older applicants . I know it woud take me 20 years to learn to say something in Russian language !
keep up thr good work and hopefully the Home Office will discover they have a heart and some compsssion after reading all the letters and emails from visa applicants who are discriminated against !!

sorry but by "racial" I thought you meant colour prejudice . Yes, it is racial in the sense that the Uk government are discriminating against people from certain countries .
I will not spell out why it is a good idea to remain anonymous but I am sure you can understand if you have ever had communication with the UKBA and their obsessiions ! Of course I will identify myself if and when a joint action is undertaken by posters on this boeard and others in, for example , a petition to the government . It si not about me not being BOLD as you say !!
I understand what you are saying but I assume the government must believe they are not acting illegally . I will certainly study the report you referred to but when all the political parties are of one mind any changes seem unlikely I guess . I thougjht the LIb Dems might just intervene and show compassion but I doubt that they will .

hi Allan ,
yes, I know what you mean . As I siad I have reasons for not wishing to disclose my name on this thread . BUT a solution is if you email a friend of mine who lives abroad and supply your landline number which he will pass on to me . I will then get in touch with you and discuss possibilities of joint action to try and overturn this unfair law and will then give you my email address and phone number . My fiiend's name is Pierre and his address is " perterjamet@yahoo.com" . I have told him you might send him an email if you agree to my suggestion .

anonymous I have just tried to email your friend Pierre at perterjamet@yahoo.com and twice recieved a notification of non delivery. Please confirm email address is 'perterjamet@yahoo.com' which is the email address you sent me. allan

on reading your posts again Allan , I would just add that the english test applies to SOME and not all non-EU nationals ( two exemption categories) which is why I have harped on about the DISCRIMINATORY nature of the test in my earlier posts .

Anonymous trying to appeal to the 'better nature' of T May and D Green is pointless because they do not have one. They are politicians with one aim to get elected as an MP and progress as far as they can as Ministers. My MP is a Lib Dem but when I asked him about my Right to a Family Life under ECHR Article 8 he fobbed me off. Yet Lord Tom McNally LibDem Coalition Minister for Justice stated in Nov 2010 the Coalition Govt would not water down the European Convention on Human Rights which they did on 29 Nov when the UKBA rushed in the new English tests. Since then both Glegg and Ming Campbell have publicly stated the ECHR will not be touched. But Cameron wants an English Bill of Rights - WHY? So the multimillionare public school Tories can manipulate the public. The public don't realise it but its the same as asking Turkies to Vote for Xmas!

I have now had the chance to look at the 1976 Race Relations ACT Allan and stand by what I said that to bring race into the equation or the argument with the Home Office will be counter productive . yes, the new langauge test appears to be in breach of the 1976 Act as it discriminates on grounds of national origin , nationality , ethnicity etc but not on race or colour grounds as both white and black applicants are discriminted against . The two exemption categories is also blatant discrimination in favour of residentgs of the countries concerned . You possibly disagree with what I am saying.
In spite of the Judges ruling quite some time ago, nothing has changed and the Home Office seem to be able to get away with it ! hard to fight a government I guess . Anyway , it will be nice to talk about it on phone soon and see if it is possible to make an impression on DG and TM .

Hi, I spoke to a visa solicitor yesterday and the conversation was interesting. As we all know until your spouse passes the English language test your application for a spouces visa will be refused. What was said however is even if by some chance the judicial review finds against the UK border control and home secretary, Government it will take months or even a year for anything to change. I was also told that the government would just amend the rules and change things so that we would still have a problem bringing non EU spouses to live with us. The above comments are OK but do we need to argue on a point as to what we each believe in. Most of us are in the same boat so to speak and are living apart from our spouses through the fault of the current government. I am descriminated on just because I fell in love with my wife who is not within the EU. My marraige is legall and we are a genuine married couple and anyone who tells me that the UK is a democratic country gets a good argument from me and a demonstration as to why democracy in the UK is not applicable and we are a repressed nation. The goverment are chipping away our rights and freedom. When an MP tells me that I could go and live with my wife in China I draw the line. My latest stunt was interesting and this is what happened. The electorial role papers arrived on my doorstep. I just put them on my mantlepiece and left them there. A few weeks later there was a knock on the door. I opened it and there was a council worker requesting the form back fiiled in and signed. I gave the gentleman the form back and told him that I will not be filling this in or signing it. You have to fill it in as you are legally obliged to do so. I told him that I am not taking part in anything that is to do with elections and government on the grounds that my rights are constantly being violated on a daily basis by the government. I explained that I am forced to live apart from my wife. He made some notes and told me that I will be hearing from the council and possible legal action. I said please do as you know I own my house fully paid you will help me by giving me a public and legal platform to state my case and the un democratic restraints being put on me as a British subject by this government and local government. Suprise no action was taken. I wonder why and who made that call. Could it be that the medea would get hold of the story and embarisment in certain quarters would ensue. I am an ex serviceman and also disabled so I really do not think they would like to give me that platform and medea exposure. I for one am not embarised if my name was plastered over the press, what have I to loose and it would bring the issue to the front of public view. best regrds Chris

Chris well done spotting something else thats what we need more people researching and inputing to our cause. keep it up mate allan

Arguing between us will not advance our cause. I have now written to the Granada Reports Tonight programme. Maybe they will do something to bring this breach of rights to the fore. I will post any response on here.

Lionel I tried to get it in the local press where I live. I wanted them to print just how the Govt was flouting UK Human Rights and what the Govt is doing introducing unlawfull tests.
They ignored all that and printed an article designed to sell their newspaper,
Don Flynn of MRN has published a piece about certain papers like Mail Express and Telegraph that are anti immigration and fail to print the facts but print a 'slanted' view which puts down immigration. So my experience of the UK local / national press is they will only print what they see as being able to sell copy and which supports Camerons Right wing attempt to introduce a UK Bill of Rights INSTEAD of the ECHR thus watering down our Rights to a Family Life' I don't think we are arguing rather discussing and exploring our options which we have to do if we consider ourselves democrats. Perhaps your local paper will be better than mine but my local would not print the fact that this English tests have been ruled UNLAWFUL in Court!
Why because they do not want adverse publicity for Cameron & Mays policy that legally what they are doing is UNLAWFUL under EU and UK Law!
Lionel Tenerife is that is that Las Palmers? If it is don't because rhe scientist say the Cumbre Vieca Mountain is ready to collapse into the sea and cause a Tsunami which will swamp the East coast of the US so perhaps not such a good idea?

Folks excuse the spelling etc but these old eyes and typing fingers are not what they used to be. At my age nothing works like it used to I'm afraid. You'all find out yourselves later. allan

In todays Daily Mail is a report that nurses from Eastern Europe who cannot speak English are allowed to work in UK hospitals - please read it.
I have posted in the DM that spouses of respectable taxpaying BRITISH CITIZENS who are fully supported by their husbands do not take jobs and cost the state nothing are being denied a visas into the UK because the British Govt have introduced UNLAWFUL ENGLISH LANGUAGE TESTS. All who post on this site with a NON EU Spouse who has been refused a visa into the UK please go onto the DM website read the article and post that you are honest taxpaying British Citizens who have a NON EU wife denied a visa into the UK because of UNLAWFULL Tests introduced by an incompetent facist misdirected UK Home Secretary who is being undemocratic. Last night on BBC Parliament a debate was broadcast from the House of Lords on English tests for Students. The Govt calculate that it will cost the UK £2.4 Billion next year. But a Lib Dem Lord stated an independent reliable source had calculated a loss in fees from overseas student would be £25BILLION BY 2015. This is how Cameron and May are prepared to wreck the UK economy in order to pursue their own right wing facist policy.
Its up to us to speak out and expose this injustice and denial of our democracy. allan

In my opinion, article 14 has been clearly breached by the Uk government as it specifically forbids discrimination on grounds of national origin ( exemption of visa applicants from only some non- EU countries from having to take and pass the english test proves this ) the right and freedoms referred to in the Human Rights Act including the right to marry ( article 12 ) . Although the discrimination is against certain non-EU spoues or fiancees of a UK citizen , it effectively also discriminates against the UK citizen or permanent resident wishing to marry someone from a non exempt country and bringing the spouse or fiancee to the UK under the terms of the relevant visa . There is therefore little doubt that the UK government has acted unlawfully in bringing in the new regulation about taking a language test .

brian & chris please may I point out to you both again that if you go onto the Liberty website and read the Matrix advise to Liberty by Rabinder Singh QC ( now Judge R Singh QC) and Aileen McColgan dated Sept 2010 you will be able to read the exact advise the ECHR Aricles 8 & 14, thw 1976 Race Relations Act.
The Englist test regs have been challenged in Court and each time the UKBA / T May was told the tests are UNLAWFUL by four Judges. Mr Justice Foskett ruled - ' the Home Sec was wrong to introduce a substansive change'.
Lord Justice Sullivan and Mr Justice Burton said Thereas May had'unlawfully attempted to side-step Parliamentary scrutiny set up under the provisions of the 1971 Immigration Act'
Lord Justice Sedley said on 21 Dec 2010 it was not for the Court of Appeal to rewrite the rule - that was for the Home Secretary T May - or abandon it.
The Chapti case in July at Birmingham where Mrs Chapti was represented by No5 Chambers ( for which we still await judgement ) was taken on the basis of Matrix advise to Liberty.
T May & D Cameron want to replace/ water it down the ECHR but they have to take their case to Strasbourg.
In the meantime we are proposing a petition to the UNHRC in Genenva in the matter of breaches of UK Nationals Human Rights to a Family Life plus racism and discrimination against NON EU Spouses by UK Government.
Because the more who petition the greater the impact and the more embarrassment for Cameron and May! There is a cover letter and each can a add individual details. Are you both up for it - will you join the petition?

Should we consider submitting to UNHRC en masse. By that I mean selecting a particular date when we will email/post letters to the UNHRC.

BRIAN I should add that you will find 'DISCRIMINATION' is covered in the MATRIX ADVISE to LIBERTY, That is why I am urging everyone to read it because it covers the lot.

Hello again folks. Read todays press the Mail & Express. 98,000 asylum seekers have been 'lost' by the UKBA. So while we as respectable taxpaying legitimate UK Nationals are being denied visas for our Spouses the UKBA 'lose' 98,000 asylum seekes!
And it gets worse because since 2006 nearly half a million have been lost in a major immigration scandal. Keith Vaz MP Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee has attacked the UKBA for making overpayments to staff and asylum seekers totalling £4M!
While this Coalition Govt deny us our rights under ECHR Articles 8 & 14 the UKBA contine to perpetrate their grossly inefficient and costly activities in protecting UK Borders!
Who is responsible Home Secretary T May and Immigration Minister D Green - a 'deadly duo'.
This is more information showing the disproportionate discrimination against UK Nationals with NON EU Spouses who are being denied their RIGHT to A FAMILY LIFE by UNLAWFULL ENGLISH LANGUAGE TESTS introduced by this facist Coalition Government under Cameron!
Read this case mark & print add a copy to your PETITION TO THE UNHCR in GENEVA. allan

folks I hope you are all getting the news that the UN are visiting the Travellers site in Basildon.
BBC showed a UN REPRESENTATIVE STATING THAT THE UK was Breaching HUMAN RIGHTS AGREEMENTS IT WAS SIGNED UP TO!
The UK is also signed up to the EUROPEN CONVENTION ON HUMAN RIGHTS which if you all read the MATRIX ADVISE TO LIBERTY SHOWS OUR RIGHTS ARE BEING BREACHED!WE HAVE TO GET OUR PETITIONS IN TO THE UNHCR at Geneva IN REGARD TO THE unlawfull English Tests applied to our Spouses by HOME SEC THERESA MAY!

Allan,

Now seems to be the right time to send our individual cases to the UNCHR. Maybe you could post a list on here of the items to include.

Its time to rally the troops :-)

Lionel sorry I was told it would be in the Morning Star. I looked and couldn't find it myself. Try a website RIGHTSandWRONGSUK run by the Radical he published the letter on there. He tarted my letter up a bit made a better job of it and it was on there. I printed it off on the 9/9/11.
Its headed up PETITION to Office UN Commission for Human Rights by British Nationals' It a general cover letter to which we can add out individual cases for the UNHCR.allan

Chris thats is correct what you were told. I was told that by my MEP. But we cannot afford to go to Court and the Govt know that. Thats why they shut down the Immigration Advisory Service to stop cases getting legal aid.But this only applies to the European Court.
It doesn't apply to the UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS in GENEVA.
ON THEIR WEBSITE IT STATES INDIVIDUALS CAN PETITION THE UNHCR.
We tell the UNHCR that we have exhausted all available means of appeal - our MP our MEP we have no redress to LEGAL AID. it has closed down the IAS - this Govt breaches EU and UK LAW - FOUR JUDGES have RULED against the UK HOME SECRETARY but she still continues to deny UK NATIONALS THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS TO A FAMILY LIFE.
Therefore we UK Nationals have no other avenue THAN PETITION THE UNHCR in Geneva. allan

I support the couple who lodged the Judicial review against the SSHD policy. I myself is the victim of this policy. My wife took the IELTS test, obtained overall band of 3.0 which is equivalent to Level A2 of CEFR. The UKBA list of approved test provider stated that if tested via IELTS you have to achieve level B1. What kind of rule is this? Once you say that the test provider must be approved and qualification must be of at least level A1. This is the rule under paragraph 281 applies to all spouse. But you bring changes in your own guidance by only allowing IELTS test taker to achieve level B1. Either you abolished the entire IELTS test or you accept it from level A1. My wife met all of the major requirements to be granted spouse visa, except for this english language requirement. The IELTS 3.0 is considered more than a basic competency. "HELLO SHE WILL INTEGRATE EASILY INTO BRITISH SOCIETY". The english language requirement does
exist in the form of life in the UK test when you apply for ILR (before permanent settlement is granted). What i think is, it is just another way of making the policy profitable, by UKBA repeatedly refusing applications, plus at the same time getting commission / fees from the approved test providers (every year on a renewal basis) and also making them profitable.

I just really hope and pray that the JR ruled against the SSHD as many will benefit from it, including myself. I do not understand why they are denying someone perfectly eligibles to pass the eligibility test.

Brian well said agree 90%. The 10% I disagee is when you say they 'appear' to be illegal.
Just to put you right read previous posts and I have quoted four Judges who have rulled in Court against Home Secretary T May that her / UKBA English tests are UNLAWFUL!
The test are not required under ECHR Article 8 as a condition of leading a Family Life'
I refer you to Liberty UK website MATRIX LAW FIRM advise of Sept 2010 where all is explained.Join our PETITION to THE UNHCR at Geneva. The more Brits the better!

Hi, It is definatley a numbers game and I can not see much change going to happen in the near future with this government in power. What is so anoying is the right organisations and people know what is happening in the UK both here and in Europe and yet no one or organisation is prepared to do anything for fear of either reprisals by the UK Government or just not wanting to rock the boat. Listening to the home secretary and minister they are introducing stronger measures regarding immigration and family life. Strange but wealth has now crept in by the minister so if you are poor you have no chance to family life as he is stating that if you are poor your rights under article 8 should be relooked at and re assessed. Now to my mind is he saying now that he is recognising article 8 when he and T May have been ignoring it. Maybe he has let something slip here as we are awaiting the results of the judicial review in October. Could it be that something is about to change and he knows something we do not yet know. I for one am looking forward to hearing the results good or bad.
best regards Chris

Hi Allan, After I wrote the last comment I was speaking to an immigration Solicitor and yes during our conversation I got the destinct impresion that something is about to change or some rules are going to be changed. I was quietly told to wait until the end of next month October which seems strange to me. Part of my conversation was the statement made by the human rights advise line which is really dumb. If you apply for a spouses visa which will cost you 810 pounds outside the UK or 510 pounds within the UK and has to be paid with your visa application and is non returnable just to activate your start date on the refusal and to start the 1 year time limit to get everything through the UK courts so that the Human rights commisioner will then look at it you are in fact throwing good money to the government on the knowledge that you have already been told that the application will be refused because of there not being an english test passed at an aproved test site. Then why would you do this? you just might as well give that money to your favourite charity. At least you know that the money might do some good somewhere rather than line the governments pockets. I did gleem something which was that if there is a change and a window of opertunity for us it will be only open for a short time as the government will try and close it with legislation through parliament. The good news is because of the costs are high on the visa application and that you are restricted in applying for the visa there is a point and case to answer. It is unfair to impose this application cost on anyone when the applicant has already been told that the application will be refused and the application fee is non returnable. This in itself is an unfair and restrictive practice and is open to challenge as it breaches UK law and wait for it another human right article as you are being fraudulently being charged for money with no chance of obtaining the product, Consumer law now takes over and I have asked a legal friend to take a look at it. He tells me that there may be something in this so I am waiting to see what he comes up with. You do get the feeling that when the government put this together it was not really thought through which really worries me. I accept that you will never cover all angles so to speak but to be frank they should have covered the most basic of these. Political it is but some logic and common sense would have helped. I can not help wondering if there is any group or organisation with clout in the UK as it does sugest that we need some group or organisation outside of the UK to challenge the government and I do not think the human rights commisioner are the correct people to promote this as the three offices in the UK are happy to sit by and let the violations on human rights in the UK go on without them saying a word. They know the situation but do nothing and in my letter to the human rights commisioner I have stated that and given them my enquiry number so that they can check out what I am saying. If the threat of funding being withdrawn is their reason well they may as well pack up and go home as they are doing no good here in the UK. Someone or something is needed to stand up and take on the government. Dale farm residents may not win in the end but I admire their courage of their convictions where they stand and be counted. best regards Chris

Hi Allan, Yes I did listen to the Lib Dems and found it totally unbelievable what was said, I get very worried with the Lib Dems as I think they actually believe in what they are saying at the conference. I think you are correct when you state that there is no organisation or group in the UK. That has been mine and others experience in the UK. What I think is dangerous is linking the two court cases together for the final judgeement. In Law each case is judged on its merits and the current Law. When you combine cases you end up with a watered down argument in so much as each situation is clouded and is not so potent. My thoughts on this is with suspition as to who and why was this done so it may or may not be sinister and suspect we will just have to see. Sorry if I sound negative but I am not holding my breath on this as the track record of this coalition is not good and as democracy has failed in the UK together with Human rights and the break down of Law in this once great country it does look bleak. It seems that if you play by the rules you get stopped at every turn but if you do not play by the rules and are dishonest you seem to win. Something is basically wrong in the Country. It does not matter if Cleg states that the human rights are here to stay he has little or no clout as deputy prime minister as the Lib Dems are not a force in government. If the tories want a bill of rights then I fail to see how the lib dems can stop them or even if they would want to. Like all of the Lib Dems statements it is trying to play up for the electorate of this country as they know deep down that they will never see government again and will probably not even make the third party slot at the next general election. Some of us have long memories and people like us who are in this situation will probably never forget. Remeber the Lib Dems statement about education fees, got them the vote but failed to follow through in a coalition. Students will not be forgeting this at the next election. I will wait for the October judgements and as I am off to visit my wife in China in November for 4 weeks I may try and claim asylum in China just to make the international news and bring the plight of many UK subjects human rights to the front and in the medea as I will be giving then notice of where and when I will do this. There is nothing to loose if the October judgements go against the couple. I am an ex serviceman and dissabled so I would throw everything in the pot to hopefully get someone to ask the UK what and why the violations of law and human rights in the UK and why declare we are a democratic country when we are not. Capalist maybe. I would be very careful as to which newspapers I will contact so that a fair report is written. I still think that writting to ECHR is a good step providing they look into the issues. My actions depend on what happens in October best regards Chris

Hi folks. I hope you all read the Daily Mail today Sat 24 Sept the article on 'the truth about polygamy'. This is a fascinating report and highlights the discrimination and racism of our situation in contrast to the situation being reported.
We are having a problem getting visas for one spouse. But these people are getting away with four spouses! Its one law for then and another for us!!
So what is the Home Sec T May and Immigration Minister D Green and PM D Cameron doing?
We are the easy targets and these others are hard targets - so we get picked off!
This has been raised by Baroness Flather and previously by Baroness Warsi and nothing was done. But we were all hit in Nov 2010 by the introduction of UNLAWFULL English tests!
British Justice and democracy has been abandoned for true Brit citizens by self seeking Ministers and politicians whoes only interest is in their own expenses and well being!

Hi folks I hope all you Brit nationals who have been denied a visa for your one spouse have noted todays Daily Mail article that ''Labour covered up pre-election reports revealing Eastern European immigrants were more likely to claim benefits'. No wonder I got no reply from Y Cooper!
They show that Bulgarian and Romania immigrants have low education levels and so were more likely to claim benefits!
We UK citizens have been hit by visa refusals for our single spouses. Yet the truth is coming out now that is there has been a big cover up.
Five documents were commissioned , at a cost of £165,0000, in months before the general election. They were never published because the Labour party was worried a row would reupt over the issue.
The Coalition must have known about these documents when they implemented their Nov 2010 UNLAWFULL test regulations!
Note this folks because it is further evidence of total discrimination against us British citizens while these other people have been allowed visas into the UK unobstructed.
Add this info to your UNHCR Petition as evidence of UKBA / Home Sec discrimonation!

Lionel well done good on you. I am working on mine and intend to submit my petition later this month. As you say there is plenty of evidence in the press about the incompetence of the UKBA the Immigration Minister and the Home Secretary to demonstrate that British Nationals Human Rights are being breached by UNLAWFULL Laws which have been criticised by our own British Judiciary and Human Rights Organisations.
Cameron spouts the UK is a democracy but not for us British Nationals! Especially if you are not part of his public school Bullington £Millionaire club or get invited to the pyjamma parties he had with Richard Murdoc's ex Editor Rebecca the Red!
Hope there are more petitioners to show the UNHCR just how two faced Cameron & Co are!

Hi All, On my trawl through cases and reviews a basic conclusion worries me. Although we are waiting on the outcome of a judicial review which is being coupled with another case. I can not find any case where it is a Britsh Subject who is born in the UK and lived in the UK all their life who has a non EU wife and is caught up in this English language requirement. The judicial review that is outstanding at present does not address this. Have we missed something here and could it be that we could be in a different ball game so to speak. I have to call back an imigration solicitor who implies that we may be missguided. I am still of the opinion that we can not win but I live in hope. best regards Chris

Hi Chris well you have heard of me and I am a born and bred British English man raised and educated in the UK. lived and worked in the UK as well as the middle east and far east.
I am a British passport holder with a NON EU wife who I have known since 1984 who lived with me on a 27 month visa in the UK which when she wanted renew her visa in January 2011 she was refused! My wife has a degree in business studies and was employed by two International Companies.
We have our own home, my wife is fully supported by me, she did not work in the UK, except to keep house, we have a joint UK bank account, her name was on our Council tax Bill.
We have what is known and referred to in the Matrix advice to Liberty as a 'CONVENTIONAL SETTLED RELATIONSHIP' which was breached by the UNLAWFULL English language test regulations introduced by UK HOME SECRETARY T MAY in Nov 2010!
Which in three Court cases have been ruled by FOUR UK JUDGES AS UNLAWFULL! Cses where the four Judges have criticised Home Sec T May personally as trying to side-step Parliamentary scrutiny!
It is now October 2011 and my wife had to leave the UK on 27 Jan 2011 so if you need to quote a British national whoes Human Rights to a Family Life has been breached by Home Sec T May's unlawfull English tests be my guest quote me in full big time OK? If you need more info ask.
I have apparoached my MP. MEP. the Shadow Home Sec and others. They are all towing the Coalition Party Line and screwing British citizens Human Rights! When the state can play games and ignore even one persons human rights they can play with everyones - and thats what the Coalition are doing! Why doesn't May put her policy in front of Parliament for scrutiny instead of using back door popular racist methods? Because she knows that before Parliament MPs will have to consider the wider issue and they won't buck the ECHR which is British Law as well as European Law with 47 signatures on that Convention! Britain / Cameron preaches democracy but he and his Government are not practising it!

Hi Allan and Brian, I agree with you 100 per cent. I am also very similar to you Allan it was when I trawled through the results and judgements I realised that non of the cases relate to this. I too have lobbied MP's and have had similar responses. I have been advised that because of the process of applying for a spouse visa your spouse has to have passed the English language test and you pay the fees with your application. If I could get it in writing from the UK Boarder Control and Immigration that my application for a visa will be refused on the grounds that my wife has not passed the English test then there is a chance of a case of fraud for them to answer as the Human rights advise is to apply and be refused to start the law clock for action through the courts leading to it being heard in Europe. Strange thing is both immigration and the UK border control declined to give me this in writing. They are not that stupid obviously. Does anyone know when the results of the judicial review are due out this month as there is something comming down the line. The difference between you and me Allen is you have had your wife living in the UK where as I have never been able to have my wife in this country although a visitors visa may at least give us 6 months if we are lucky. But I still think claiming asylum when I visit my wife next month in China and inviting the international press could bring our plight to the front of peoples awareness and a huge embarrisment to the government. I am still trying to work out the repercussions on it. A bit of an unkown quantity. I too have to support two homes now and contribute to my wife. If all else fails I will just run my business here in the UK but spend my money in China instead of spending much in the UK. You are correct about the political parties as I have contacted the 3 main ones and no one is prepared to go against the party line. The root of the problem seems to stem from foriegn people who have broken the UK criminal law in this country who put up a defence of human rights to avoid deportation. The judicial system is full of such cases which is obviously upsetting the home office. I was also supprised to read today that Mr. Clarke has been slapped for his outbusrt against T May's speach and the cat remark which was untrue by the PM. It does show the extent that this goverment are prepared to lie and cloud the true issues by smoke screens and red herrings. Mr. Clarke has gone up in my estimation for being up front and trying to put credability to the government and its laughable speeches by its members.
The thing that is very frightening is that despite the ruleing by four Judges against the home office and the unlawful introduct of the English test and the descrimination against certain non EU countries they have been allowed to get away with just ignoring them. which seem like there is little point in having judgements in law as they can be just ignored by government. best regards Chris

Chris a further comment if I may in regard to my wife having been resident in the UK for 27 Months and your wife not!
I suggest that is a tad irrelevant because in the advice by Matrix to Liberty the test of spousal status is decribed as ' BEING IN AN A ESTABLISHED CONVENTIONAL RELATIONSHIP''.
It doesn't even say you have to be MARRIED it can be a PARTNER it seems!
But yes I agree the fact that my wife was resident in the UK for 27 months then refused a new visa does strengthen our case and emphasises the flaw in the UKBA test policy.
But we are victims of Mays 'Numbers Game Policy' where she has publicly stated she wants IMMGRATION NUMBERS DOWN and EMMIGRATION NUMBERS UP!
The Home Office and UKBA will have highly paid people getting £10,000 a year bonuses monitoring whats happening, and this website incl our posts, then reacting to close any loopholes where they can! By the way the Home Secs new name is now MOGGY MAY OK!
The Parliamentary Home Affairs Select Committee Chaired by Keith Vaz MP recommended those £10,000 annual bonuses be stopped as well as stating the UKBA WAS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE! Woolas claimed the £10K BONUSES WERE FOR DOING A DFANGEROUS JOB - SITTING BEHIND A DESK. John Reid also stated the UKBA wasn't fit for prurpose! They have a history of BNP employees, a Head of Investigation jailed for being a conman and a ex employee who said RACISM was rife in UKBA offices. Read the Daily Mail.
The latest is the CPS / UKBA office worker peddling drugs to his co-workers in the CPS HQ!

Thanks Allan , I am thinking about what you have written as I fell of my seat when I read " MOGGY MAY" capital humour. When I have given this some thought I will respond after composing myself over the laughter. Not sure why you think I am young both my wife and me are 58 years old as there is only four months difference in our ages so perhaps not so young but of course I do not know. What I think has altered the UK Border controls thinking and responses is perhaps they have now realised that they have and are being overturned with their judgements in the courts. What I am looking for is a platform but I am thinking on this one but I did get some usefull information which confirmed what I believed to be true from a very unusual source. It does deprive the UK government of visa fees for China. I did mention it in a previous comment. best regards Chris

Hi All,

Glad to read all your post, it really feels reassuring. I have also been reading the latest news relating to the row about Human rights and particularly the "PET CAT" case. It really is frustrating and sad that the newspapers houses like daily mail, telegraph etc are only showing one side of the picture. Shouldn't journalism be impartial? They should have printed both sides of the argument. Nevertheless, whilst reading through the post, i noted that chris wanted to know when the JR decision will be known. I contacted the solicitors J.M. Wilson and their response was that the decision is likely to be known by the end of October. see this link;http://www.jmwilsonsolicitors.com/#/high-profile-cases/4534895143 plus see below the email conversation i had with the representative of JM WILSON.

From: Sanjeev [mailto:Sanjeev@jmwilsonsolicitors.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 8:59 PM
To: jkmemon@gmail.com
Subject: RE: Form submission from [J.M.Wilson Solicitors] - [Contacts / Links] - [ Contact form 1]

Thank you for your enquiry.

There is no decision at this stage and we might receive it at the end of October.

Please check then and thanks for your support.

Sanjeev Sharma
J. M. WILSON SOLICITORS LLP
Tel: 0121 356 4556
Fax: 0121 356 4633

Service of proceedings or documents by Email are not accepted.

Regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority

www.jmwilsonsolicitors.com

-----Original Message-----
From: jkmemon@gmail.com [mailto:jkmemon@gmail.com]
Sent: 04 October 2011 11:36
To: Sanjeev
Subject: Form submission from [J.M.Wilson Solicitors] - [Contacts / Links] - [ Contact form 1]

date:
2011-10-04

time:
10:36:12 UTC

Your email address:
jkmemon@gmail.com

Subject:
Mrs Chapti case

Message:
Dear sir / Madam,
Just wondered when the decision from the high court of Birmingham be known as we are counting on this one to take advantage of if the court decides in the favor of Mrs Chapti.
There are many in Pakistan with the similar problems. I pray that high court quashes this unlawful language bar.
Regards

Folks note the posts of both jkmemon and John in their respective situations.
Jkmemon expresses his concern about the Palistan community. One of the targets for the reduction in numbers of immigrants of the Indian/ Pakistan communities.
John comments about the test itself. The cost and secondly the technicalities of the test.
What does this tell us?
It confirms the comments made by UKBA Chief Inspector John Vine on 16 Feb 2011 that the UKBA puts profit before security!
That the English language tests are not about ability to pass but to fail- in order to encourage applicants to keep taking the tests and keep paying the fees! Also to keep immigrant numbers down.
In the matter of Pakistani visas it was reported on 27 July 2010 that immigration officials had ignored possible evidence of fraud in nearly a third of the applicants which resulted in visas being granted. That of the 6,750 visas granted 2,000 may have been wrongly granted in 12 months. I quote this from my archive data as reported in the UK national press.
John Vine Chief Insp of the UKBA said 'a lack of proper scrutiny amounted to a failure to protect Britains borders'. This is in a climate of Al Qaeda, the Taliban and terrorism!!
I suggest this information was accepted by the Home Affairs Select Committee Chaired by Keith Vaz MP in January 2011 which concluded 'the UKBA WAS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE was failing to meet expctations and that ANNUAL £10,000 BONUSES BE STOPPED!

I sympathasise John and I too have always voted Tory and am so disillusioned with whole visa process and the new obnoxious english test which applies to certain non-EEC countries! Seems that the ideal scenario for the government is to rake in the fat fiancee and spouse visa fees and then find a reson not to give a visa which much happen quite a lot . We are just numbers and not human beings with feelings to the Home Office and Immigration Minisrter who are such heartless and ruthless people . They think their policy is an election winner as popular with UK folk who are not affected but I really hope they are proved to be wrong. good luck and have a nice weekend.

Hi, I believe that the legal system may at the end of the day be our salvation. The Tories have always been called the nasty party and that has not changed over the past decade. We are all victims of this visa shambles at present. I have yet to find a member of parliament who will even raise this issue in parliament. Although this english test stems from the labour government MOGGY MAY just jumped in and adopted it as her own and brought in the rule unlawfully. Her latest conference oubust and comment demonstrated how stupid and brain dead she actually is. The Tory members must be wondering how did she manage to get away with making the party look stupid in front of the press and electorate of this country. One thing I will say is we must stand and fight against this government and these violations of our rights. If we do not do this them why are servicemen loosing their lives for this country in the so called name of democracy which has failed in this country. As an ex serviceman I have changed my view on the ideals and beliefs I have. I will always stand up and fight for what I believe to be right until someone proves that I am misguided. I think we have battles and we fight them one at a time and eventually we win the war. This is no different and I think Allan that we are all trying to find the right platform and the right levers to bring our plight into the public eyes in a fair and just manor. I am constantly researching things and watching and reading human rights cases and their outcome and also the cases against the home office and reading what the high court judges comments are on individual cases. I share the frustration and the injustice as my wife and I are experiencing all the problems over this english language test requirement before you can join your spouse in the UK. I also agree that honesty is not the best policy in this country right now as it seems that if you play by the rules you get hammered but if you do it illegaly then you win. This just can not be right so I am still of the opinion that we should be able to fight against the rule. I for one refuse to be beaten and sooner or later I will get my day to voice my rights being violated by a government who have turned a great country into an undemocratic country and a government who violates it own peoples human rights on a daily basis. best regards Chris

Hi Allan, The problem with what the government are doing is this. Do you really think that the government are going to leave it at that. If a UK Bill of rights was introduced it would be the start of further watered down rights and the start of law changes so that the UK would slowly but possativley remove parts of the human rights act out of the judicial system. As the legal aid in the UK is being reduced and peoples access to justice is badly hammpered the avaerage man in the street would not be able to challenge the government unless they had enough money to take it into Europe providing we were still signing up to it. The poles are just that. The way the papers are reporting things about immigration and the way it has only reported on one side of the debate who knows what will happen. Today we see immigration being brought into the forefront of public and government comments and phobia has set in. Our society is more anti racial now than I have seen in a very long time in this country. Of course none of this does anything to help us in our plight for a fair and right system and getting our spouses into the UK to be with us and make are familes complete. If we stand by and do nothing we loose and it will not be just our situation but the whole of the UK's people. We live in a multi cultural society despite what the press and government would have us believe. The UK Bill of rights would not be the same as the European human rights and that is where I beg to differ. The government have made it perfectly clear that they want to get rid of the human rights act and they know that at the present they are not able to. The UK Bill of rights would be a good vehicle to drive home the governments aims. Remember the back door instead of it being clossed it is being left open so that the government have access to make suttle changes as and when needed. As you are all aware our options and voices are being thwarted at every step. This country can and could withdraw to parts of the human rights act in part as difficult as it may be. It is all fluid and as we know things can change. The only part of what the government says that I partly agree with is the idea that an immigrant can break the laws of the country and expect to remain in this country and again this is dependant on the gravity of the offense. If that immigrant has leave to remain in thsi country then he has every right to remain just like any british prisioner. If that were not the case there would be a claim for descrimination. My idea to claim asylum in China and invite the international press would work but at a cost. Somebody once said a principle is only a principle if it costs you. Yes I could see remarks of traitor and worse being levied at me and more but I would achieve a world platform and really kick this government and shame the human rights people in the UK who do little to making noises to the government about the breaches the government are doing and not abiding by the human rights this country has signed up for. The human rights advise line should be clossed in the UK of which there are three main offices. They are badly failing people in the UK and should be clossed down. I have yet to here from the human rights commisioner which is proberbly right as I have written to the labour leader no reply, MP's no reply. No one wants to rock the boat so money does do all the talking. This governemnt should watch out because if I ever win the lottery I would definatley make legal challenges and bring to the forefront the whole issue and be a major thorn in this governments side and shame them and the human rights people in the UK and also bring it to the attention of the world and the people in this country. The division of areas for voting and less MP's is another problem and so I am only concentrating on our current issues. I would be very supprised if this government can servive a general election and the Lib Dems will certainly not be there. My problem is that other parties are gaining ground and the three major parties are loosing it. We live in very dangerous times in the UK and until we have a champion who can advance our causes we will always be in an uphill climb. best regards Chris

There is also one more major point that I have not seen any one here bring up, I hope I am right if not then I apologise now , the Point is no one in England voted for this government , DID WE we either voted Conservative, or liberal , and I think that when some thing like this happens there should be a re-election, my point is not that I think it will make any difference who is in so called power , because once" in" they all sing from the same hymen book.:(

Chris you really are a champ Brit democrat if you believe UK Politicians are honest and do the best for their country! Politicians kiss babies and steal their lollipops. Look at what we have at the moment all of them from Cmoron downwards look at the latest with Fox whats going on there? So OK leak out what you want to the press and tell them your grandad allan ledwith is seeking asylum in Thailand but has a problem getting his wheelchair on the plane! GO FOR IT!

But we can vote them out ,so do it at the next election , do you think it will change any thing ,nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

sorry want

If we take the stance John that you are stateing then we would have never got the pole tax removed and the unions would never have improved working conditions and so forth. There is always the chance that we as a minority will be heard. It is finding the right platform and to say or even think the government are the management well I think it should be that you mean the miss management. A sense of humour is always good best regards Chris

hi allan , I understand what you are saying and share your humour. I too have to have a great deal of trust on both our parts living apart for a few months at a time. Who said history repeats itself? Did not Guy Faulks try to blow up the houses of parliament once? I do not recall that re ocurring yet is it time? I think be better keep low keyed on that other wise we can get arrested and charged with insiteing a bonfire or burning. I too have done a lot of writting but have not had one reply which kind of tells me that something has gone wrong with a MP's and the political system in this country. How silly of me to think that my local MP would listen and at least try and raise the issue. As the government seem to use a sledge hammer to crack a walnut perhaps that is the answer and do the same. Use a sledge hammer to crack a walnut Ooops! I do not think the government have any. best regards sledge hammer Chris

Chris try it and let us know, The Law hasn't stopped the Home Sec yet.Whats stopped many taking legal action is we haven't got the money and the Govt KNOW IT!
Anyone with money has no problem. Why because the UKBA know that legal action can be taken and in Court the Home Sec will lose. But the rest of us do not have the money.
They shut the public assistance route off by forcing the Immigration Advisory Service into administration. If you know anyone who will take a no win no fee case let us know please.

Allen , also you cant get legal aid unless you earn less the the National average which they move the goal posts to suit them selves
John

sorry their

the judges rule ,the government take no notice , and we cannot bring our wives into the country , so my answer is" what use is the high court ruling "

I FOUND THE JUDGEMENT. HERE IS THE LINK; http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/docs/UKSC_2011_0022_Judgment.pdf

REGARDS
JKMEMON

One would think so but if this is the case, why have they not when 3 judges have already stated that they are unlawful in making the English test a requirement.
John

John you ask what use is the High Court or in todays ruling the Supreme Court. The difference is the Govt case has been ruled UNLAWFUL that makes our case LAWFULL.
Therefore in the Eropean Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg the Coalition Govts case has already been Judged UNLAWFULL ours is not!
We are within the UK and ECHR Law the UK Govt is NOT!
A case can be taken to the European Court only after all National chanels have been taken - in T Mays case she is getting closer to running out of channels - we are not - we are LAWFUL! We may find a Lawyer who will act on a no win no fee basis - especially if the odds of winning are high.
As T May loeses more cases in the UK our odds of winning get higher. This could motivate the Home Sec to change course before she loses in Strasboug. To date T May is losing we the 'bleds' are winning just hang on in. I have been waiting since January 2011. Patience is a vitrue right.

I have just sent this to my M.P who is supposed to be looking into my case
Dear Justin
I am sorry to keep writing to you but I do not seam to be getting any answers , I know this means that it is possible you are not as well , but I think you can understand how frustrated I am , and as I said I had a heart attach in 2007 and all this stress is not doing my health any good , maybe if I had another heart attach it would make some one move and do something I saw this on the net today what is going to happen with it or is it going to be another sweep under the carpet and do nothing by this government
John actually it is three cases and four judges that have already ruled the
Home Secs English tests breached the ECHR Article 8. But T May just ignores
their rulings Parliament will not challenge T May in the Commons.
I have written to Yvette Cooper to ask will she challenge T May as Shadow
Home Sec - No reply.
I have written to an MEP and been told it is beyond his remit.
The Judges are the only ones upholding our Right to a Family Life but the MPs
make the Laws.
But todays Judgement , the fourth case, in the Supreme Court will make the
Home Sec think again. It is more 'ammunition' to include in our Petition to
the UNHCR in Geneva.
I think you will agree its not right and the ruling should be obeyed, if it were me taken to court and ruled against ,and I did not conform then I would most likely be sent to prison , so does this mean that members of parliament, are above the law ? , just one last point I have fought for my country in Malaya and voted Conservative all my life but at the next elections I will be thinking very carefully, because what is the point in voting for some one who disregards the law and does not help the people who vote for them . and I might add I am not alone , with this particular problem I ask you will you challenge T May in the Commons on my behalf
regards John Jones

John well done I have another contact who has just done the same as you and emailed / written to his MP asking how can Thesesa May keep breaking the Law and no MP challenges her? Well the reason we all know is they are toeing the Cameron party line and sod us serfs. My other contact has emailed his MP he is also complaining about the cost of it all!
The more we scream shout threaten pile on the pressure the Better,
Today on BBC2 Politics one guy said it was Balkan academics who dreamed up the ECHR.
Well I understood the Chief Architect was Sir David Maxwell-Fyffe a Prosecutor at Nuremburg and that Sir Winston Churchill gave the ECHR his total support! It was UK Law!
So I have emailed a complaint to the BBC that Andrew Neil the presenter allowed this, did not correct it, denigrated the UKs part in the ECHR and as a Scot failed his country and countryman! Everyone contact all your friends spread the word the Coalition is breaking the Law and if they can do it to us they will do it to all. British democracy and freedom is at stake!

Hi all, I heard from my MP's office late yesterday and have been asked to send an email to them listing and explaining everything I have descussed about not being able to bring my legally married Chinese wife into the UK to live with me in my own house. I am told that on reciept of the email my MP will look at it and act. Well I think at least this is a possative step towards some one in parliament saying something. He is a Labour MP so is in opposition but has implied that as he is about to be made immigration minister in opposition very soon perhaps he may raise the issue. He has already agreed that it is not right or even correct to introduce the rule and further more should not be acting against the law in the UK. This should be interesting if when he recieves my email anything happens. With regards to the descetionary leave visa John I have no idea how long it takes to go through but I am looking into it and may even try this but by it's very nature it must fall into special circumstances. I am busy composing my long email at present.... Great news about the under 21 spouses entry ruled in the high court. What you say Allan is good logical thinking but unfortunately the ruling was under 21 however over 21 may not be unlawfull remember logic and common sense do not prevail in case law. hence " the law is an ass" I honestly believe that if you knock on enough doors sooner or later someone will open it. I do believe I will find that someone who opens the door hopefully sooner rather than later. Regarding the human rights commisioner and the back log of cases well it may be the case which might explain why I have not heard anything from them. As I pointed out earlier the UK are seen to be a democratic country with democracy in place and although we know better by experiencing this the rest of Europe do not as there are very few cases made against the UK on human rights as per my investigations in Europe. When all the complaints have been submitted to him do you not think that someone who is intelligent will not ask the right question. We have received all these complaints from British Subjects about human right infringments is there something going on in the UK. At that point the government get asked some very dammaging questions and they will then have to answer. Despit the PM and others retoric he really does not have a cat in hells chance of getting rid of the human rights act. Ooooops sorry that cat again, glad I am a dog lover. You can not buck authority but you can beat them by playing by their rules. So I would surgest we all carry on knocking................in fact a good title for another carry on film best regards Chris