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MAC family settlement report - Not just a matter of pounds and pence
The Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) makes the sensible comment in its report on family migration published last week that it is an issue with “complex economic, legal, moral and social dimensions.”
Quite. So complex in fact that throughout history there has been a reluctance to leave the business of supporting the welfare of families, with all the tasks they assume on behalf of the wider interests of society, entirely to the vagaries of labour markets. Amongst other things, families are a critical cultural resource within our communities, working to develop the values relevant to citizenship and responsibility and sensitivity towards duties and obligations owed to others.
But in inviting the MAC to set the parameters within which migrant families can be united in the UK on purely economic terms, the Coalition Government has chosen to operate with a different lens, seeing the family as a unit of consumption which should not be subsidised by the public revenue.
The economic experts on the MAC have done some formidable number-crunching in their efforts to determine the point at which a family becomes a ‘burden’ on the public exchequer. It turns out that there are a lot of ways to calculate this, with the annual income figure appropriate to a family consisting of two adults with no dependents being £18,600 if your concern is restricted to the elimination of entitlement to cash benefits, but rising to £25,700 if you also want to be fully compensated for any use they might make of the NHS, subsidised transport and their share of wear and tear on roads and pavements, etc.
The calculations become more complicated when dependent are added to the mix. It seems that we could simply look at the demands made on income-related benefits, or instead make use of equivalence scales to allow comparison between the standards of living of households of different sizes and structure. Using the first method the MAC suggests that a two adult household’s income would have to rise by 27% to avoid a first dependent adding to the income-related benefits bill, 53% for a second dependent, and a full 80% for a third. The second method would require an increase of 33% for dependent one, 67% for dependent two, and a full 100% for dependent three.
What impact will such income requirements have on the people resident in the UK who typically apply to sponsor family settlement in each year? The numbers coming in the family reunification category have dropped back significantly in recent years – down from 74,000 in 2006 to 54,000 in 2009, and remaining around that mark since. Between 2005 and the first half of 2011 the biggest category – amounting to 80% of the total volume – was spouses or partners without any additional dependents. Of these 68% were females and 32% males. A further 12% were child dependents and the remainder other dependents, mainly elderly parents and grandparents.
A large proportion of family visas – 57% - go to just 10 nationalities. These are Pakistan (16%), India (10%), United States (6%), Nepal (5%), Bangladesh (4%), Thailand (4%), Philippines (3%), Turkey (3%), Nigeria (3%), and South Africa (3%). A tougher regime governing family reunion could therefore be presumed to have a differential impact across the nationalities settled in the UK.
Other factors which need to be considered are the age profiles of the applicants. It seems safe to assume that younger applicants will be earning less than older people who are higher up their career ladders. Communities whose members marry at younger ages could therefore also expect to suffer from immigration policies which place greater emphasis on income.
The MAC’s review of the evidence data helps us understand which nationalities might be vulnerable on this score. For example, 64% of Pakistani applicants are between the ages of 18 and 27. For Bangladeshi’s the figure is 66%, the same for Afghanis, but a lower 52% for Indians. On the other hand, 70% of US applicants are aged 28 or older, and the same age groups accounting for 76% of Thai applicants.
The point here is that patterns of marriage usually have some point of reference in the values and expectations of different communities which follow their own lines of rationality. Earlier marriage amongst some groups might arise from the need to compensate for disadvantages in terms of educational levels and lack of financial capital. For these young families, marriage is often a way to extend the scope of supporting networks which, in term, translate into strengthened opportunities for careers or business. If limits are placed on the opportunities young people have to enter into these alliances then longer term damage might be inflicted on the chances of achieving upward social mobility.
Other considerations ought to play a role in guiding policy-making in this area. We know that earning levels are unevenly distributed across the country. What might be achievable amid the job markets of more buoyant local economies will be difficult to reach in depressed regions. This point was noted in a submission to the MAC’s report team from the Scottish Government which also made the point that
“...younger migrants may offer longer-term benefits to the Scottish economy, but at the same time they are more likely than older people to experience difficulties with income thresholds as they are at the beginning of their working lives”.
Also noted by the Scottish Government is the fact there are many occupations that are very important to the economy but which are not paid particularly well. Do we really want to make the prospects for family life with a chosen partner more difficult for a residential care worker in a rural area of Perth than for an executive-level operator in the South East of England?
The starkness of the work presented in this MAC report comes out clearly in the penultimate paragraph of the main part of the report. If the lower of the two figures which the Committee recommends in answer to the Government’s request for guidance is adopted - £18,600 – then 45% of the applicants who have been applying in recent years would have been refused. If the higher figure - £25,700 – is adopted the refused proportion rises to 64%.
We should heed the warning which the MAC author’s mentioned in this report: that their work is only concerned with economic calculations and leaves wider social, legal and moral considerations almost entirely outside the frame of its advice. Yet on something as fundamental as the right to family life, the social, legal and moral dimensions surely need to be much more to the forefront. We’ve heard from the economic experts, what will the other authorities – community leaders, church and faith communities, and the lawyers versed in human rights issues, have to say on this vexed issue?
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This is an outrageous piece of nonsense by the MAC and bears no relationship to reality. One again Scotland shows more common sense and judgement and I say that as an Englishman. Its really making one condition for the relative 'rich' and another for the relative 'poor'.
After the mess the Coalition Govt is in with uncontrolled entrancies into the UK and the obvious lack of security to the UK by a UKBA that isn't fit for purpose and a Home Secretary and Immigration Miniister both of who are completely incompetent and out of their depth to even think let alone make this proposal is the height of arrogance lacking any justification.
The Coalition Govt is clutching at straws again and trying to justify their ineffective and UNLAWFULL policy of limiting immigration and increasing emigration.
Cameron May and Green fail UK democracy again and they should stop wasting time and money and get on with the real migration issues of the criminals terrorists and torturers they have let into the UK and have failed to deport. They are the danger to the UK and not the families of respectable citizens.
Cameron May and Green have already committed UNLAWFULL regulations to be introduced. They operate a UKBA that has been found 'not fit for purpose' and pay out £10K to £15K bonuses that the Home Affairs Select Committee recommended be stopped!
The UK needs a new PM, Home Secretary and Immigration Minister and get rid of this 'NASTY PARTY' Coalition Govt and cleanse the UKBA from top to bottom with an effective Regulatory system! Restore democray and no more of Cameron's HYPOCRACY!
A married partner is coming into a home and bills that are basically already paid for.
Since a person is envisaged as surviving their bills on JobSeeker's allowance, perhaps an economic sponsorship calculation could be that the sponsoring partner has to have per year spare cash equal to JobSeeker's allowance minus 80% utility bills (which are already paid for).
d
Incidentally, could i ask here, with this change, will it likely be back-applied (i.e. how do they tend to assess these things with regard to applications-in-progress).
For example (my own case), suppose a person applies for 2 year visa, this new pricing comes in, and the person applies for further leave to remain and then applies for indefinite leave to remain, would the indefinite leave to remain likely be affected by this new arrangement given that the original visa application was prior to it (and a further leave after)?
Many thanks if you can suggest an answer to this!
d
Answer to D.
There's nothing in the MAC report that suggests how the UKBA should deal with applications already submitted but the usual practice is that anything with them before the date of a rule change is considered under the rules which applied at the date of submission.
The more difficult point is the rules which apply when the spouse/partner reaches the two year (possibly to be extended to 5 year) point when they apply for settlement. The danger is that people admitted at relatively low levels of income under the old rules will be expected to show a proportionately large hike in income in order to meet settlement requirements under the new rules.
But bear in mind this is just speculation on how they might deal with it - we've still got a chance through lobbying and campaigning to stop the measure coming in in the first place!
thanks Don!
i am somewhat apprehensive :) i live quite happily on much smaller amount than their proposed threshold and i have plenty to spare to cover my partner. Of course cycling etc saves a huge amount. i dare say if i owned an expensive house outright with no mortgage that would not get considered under proposals based solely on income.
At any rate, i've emailed my MP about the need for flexibility and looking beyond income, and also about avoiding new legislation being applied retrospectively and leaving couples who married and got a settlement visa under the old system only to be priced out by the new, being left stranded in different countries.
d
This is against human right that separate wife and husband. how can this be as uk is the uk is the head of leading human right around the world.
pun - what you have read about the UK and Human Rights isn't reality.
The UK has been operating inhuman policies against immigration and since Nov 2010 it has affected many established respectable and self sufficient British citizens.Since Nov 2010 the UK Coalition Govt have breached the European Convention on Human Rights which is UK Law.
British citizens like myself who are self supporting have had their non EU wives refused a visa into the UK and had to leave. My own wife had been here living with me in our own home for 27 months. She had been taking English lessons could speak english but not enough to pass a 'rigged' UKBA english test that even English people have failed.
The UK Borders agency is a flawed organisation and found to be 'unfit for purpose' by a parliamentary Home Affairs Select Committee. Recent events in the UK have confirmed that.
I know a retired Judge who said to me the UKBA is an 'open door to corruption'.
The UK PM is a hypocrit he tells other nations the UK is a democracy but it isn't!
The Home Secretary has been criticised by Senior Judges who have ruled her policy regulations are UNLAWFULL in 4 Court cases by 8 Judges!
The UK Govt Minister who is charged with upholding the UK Law is in fact breaking UK Law with discriminatory and racist regulations affecting UK citizens!
Britain is no longer a DEMOCRACY it is a Tory led HYPOCRACY led by PM Cameron!
As an Australian citizen who has resided here since early 2009 with my UK born and bred wife,we are getting ever more worried with the constant bullying,harrassment and quite frankly comments from Damien Green which I find insulting,vile and totally unacceptable against non EU citizens.It is quite clear that this man has a deep seated hatred of non EU citizens who LEGALLY reside in the UK.We reside in my wife's house with no mortgage or rent to pay,we have a 2 year old baby son who was born here and who is a UK passport holder.I am currently on FLR in the UK and we were hoping that I would be able to pass the life in the uk test this year and apply for ILR when my current visa expires early nexy year.We are both now exceptionally worried as we do not have the proposed income of 26,000 to show,we earn around 16,000 which we live on quite comfortably.I am very very surprised at the level of hatred which is enamating from this goverment against non e u citizens in the UK.It is nothing more than apartheid and how quite this can be allowed to happen in a so called democratic society is beyond me.Will we be expected to leave the UK if we are not earning this amount of money? I have been in contact with a Australian newspaper who are very interested in running a story about the problems facing Australian and other non EU citizens who are residing in the UK.It is something that needs exposing.What Damien Green needs to remember is that without the millions of non EU citizens that sacrificed their lives fighting for THIS country in 2 world wars against EUROPEANS,then in all proability he would not have a country.If only the brightest and best are to be allowed into the UK(Once again very insulting rhetoric from this)then may I suggest he do the most honrable thing and remove himself from the UK forthwith.
Anonymous Oz pleased be assured that not all Brits have the same ideas as Damian Green.
As a born and bred Brit and a pensioner I 100% disagee with him and 100% agree with you!
It is to be noted that this Immigration Minister is all you describe and more! A complete 0%!
It was reported in the Guardian last week in the evidence given to the Leveson Inquiry by ex Asst Commissioner Bob Quick under oath, that when Damian Green was arrested in the House of Commons in 2008 and raided his Westminster Office in the matter of obtaining classified information from a Govt emplyee he was taken to the police station.
Bob Quick said in a written statement that the police went thro the normal reception process.
Green was asked to nominate a person to be notified of the arrest. Green nomimnated Andy Coulson who was Director of Communications for the Conservartive Party!
Bob Quick then stated that the investigation was then dropped following pressure from the Conservative Party! I quote direct from the Guardian reports on the Leveson Inquiry.
Damian Green is everything you say he is but he is supported by right wing Conservatives as is his boss Home Secretary Theresa May. She has made numerous errors not least her failure to address the UKBA fiascos of allowing unrestricted entry into the UK from Europe and her failure to address the matters of criminals terrorists and torturers allowed into the UK!
Therefore as someone in a similiar position as yourself a respectable self supporting British national I can tell you we, and that includes all the people I know, agree with you 100%.
Please tell your Oz Press contact ordinary Brits agree with you and want you in the UK and Damian Green and Theresa May OUT! Best wishes and keep in touch allan & mates.
Hi Allan and Mates,Really appriciate that.I know that most Brits no way share the bigoted views of Damien Green,in fact I can say that since moving here that I have never met such friendly people,I've made some real friends here.It strikes me that most of our neighbours here, and we are fortunate enough to live in a decent area, have or had no idea of the difficulties facing non EU citizens.In fact when we show them the latest, what I would consider illegal proposed changes with regard to income,all were pretty shocked,the general consensus amoung both friends and neighbours was.... they can't so that!! I just do not see how this can in anyway be legal,it's just absoulutly and utterly beyond any sort of reason.We are lucky as my wife had a house left to her after her Mum died,which was why we elected to live in the UK in the first place.As i mentioned previously we have got no mortgage or rent to pay for housing costs and we are both very happy and settled here,but for our lives not to mention our legal right to a family life to be put at risk due to unreasonable and frankly insummountable financial demands by the goverment is just totally unacceptable.It is flawed as if we were earning the required proposed 26,000 and were paying a mortgage of 1,000 a month,then even though we would then qualify,we would then have less income than we have now.As things stand we pay approx 100 a week on bills,the rest is ours to save or more likely spend in the local econony.These proposals have certainly made us ask alot of difficult questions as if I was forced to leave the UK then what possible advantage would this serve for the UK Govt.It could possibly mean my UK Wife leaving her job and bringing up our son on her own in which case she would be living on benefits!!It just seems so badly thought out and totally flawed.I think it is disgraceful that in this day and age that non EU citizens are treated differently to EU citizens.I have never experianced racism from a govt before and when a govt seems intent on ruining peoples marriages and family life due to one of the partners not being European,it;s not a nice feeling at all.I can only imagine the further difficulties that non native English speakers face.This is families that are being attacked including babies and young Children.I have looked at certain comments from Damien Green and Teresa May over the past 2 years or so and quite frankly how they get away with some of their comments is unbelievable,I have kept a whole load of press cuttings with regard to these comments,they will be sent for perusal at the Australian newspaper.I find comments such as raising the bar just unacceptable,this is not some olympic sport we are talking about,it is peoples lives.I am also going to call my embassy tommorrow..enough is enough.
Hi Oz mate (and wife) your right again. In fact Green and May are working to regulations they wanting to introduced and previous regulations they introduced that have not been put before Parliament and passed as UK law. Therefore they are UNLAWFULL under UK Law!
There have previously been Court cases and the Judiciary have found against May and declared her regulations as UNLAWFULL ok!
One Judge stated that May was trying to 'side-step Parliamentary scrutiny' and she should put her regulations before Parliament. I can think of a more appropraite place where the sun doesn't shine she should put them!
If you go on the Liberty UK website you can find an ADVICE given to Liberty UK by MATRIX Rabinder Singh QC and Aileen McColgan in September 2010. This sets out the legal situation in full and states T May's reg's are UNLAWFULL under UK Law and ECHR Article 8 ok.
May won't put her regs before Parliament because she knows they breach ECHR Article 8 the Right to a Family Life as well as the UK 1976 Race Relations Act. May knows asking Parliament to vote against these a is a step too far so she doesn't do it.
What is happening now is that the UK has just taken over the Chair at the ECHR in Strasbourg and they are now trying to get things changed there. But there are 47 signatories to the ECHR so its not that easy - plus the UK under Cameron isn't that popular in Europe at present.
So like I said you are in good company including me. My wife ran into this problem in Jan 2011.
There is a English Language test the UKBA want. Its run for the UKBA by Pearson Edexcel ok.
It now costs £130 fee to take the test. Its a computerised test. But its a scam because my doctors practise manager a mature born and bred Brit lady took the test and failed. Her brother took the test and passed by one point. You can take the test as often as you want at £130 per time.What we call 'a nice little earner - for the tester and UKBA.
May has publicly stated her policy is to restrict immigration and encourage emigration ok.
But she cant block EU nationals so she blocks NON EU which is discrimination - which is in breach of UK Law. My MP suggested I leave the UK when I went to him!
So its a rotten situation by a rotten dicriminatory racist Govt ok. If we remember a certain Tory MP attended a party in the French alps where they wore Nazi uniforms and gave Nazi salutes then it gives a taste of whats happening. I have an arch lever files of printed press reports over the last year about Green and May's UKBA.
The UKBA was found to employ BNP members. A UKBA whistle blower reported UKBA offices were blatantly racist. The UKBA took on a Head of Investigation who was found and convicted of being a CON MAN. The Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee Chaired by Keith Vaz MP found the UKBA 'not fit for purpose' which is the same conclusion that John Reid came to when he was Home Sec. Even the UKBA Ind Insp John Vine has found against the UKBA.It goes on mate the system is rotten to the core. Badly managed racist & inefficient!
My wife was well settled same as you. We are financially self sufficient. My wife didn't work just kept house. She has a BA in Business Admin and did work for two international companies in her own country. We have a joint UK bank account, own our house same as you. My wife gets on well with all the neighbours and all the people on the bus into town ask after her. She emails them and they want to know when is she coming back?
But she was refused a visa after living here 27 months. That was in Jan 2011.
So this is the score Oz mate and we are all mighty mad about it and if you can get the OZ press to broadcaste what a bunch of ####### this UK Govt is we'll help you all the way OK?
I hope other readers will correct me if any of my comments are incorrect ok.
Anonymous OZ I have just been talking to a guy on the phone who lived in OZ a long time. I told him about you and suggested he come on this site and participate. He calls himself Peter.
He might be able to help with info for the OZ press because he's written a lot to his MP and other Ministers incl D Green. He is of the same opinion as us OK. Have you got a blog name other than Anonymous like Ned Kelly or Don Bradman? Might be useful for us to communicate.
Hi,thanks,yer my name is James.It seems a very corrupt system currently in operation in the UK,something I never ever thought I would experiance.I know another couple he's British and She's Thai maybe Fillipino who live not far from us,we went to a BBQ there last summer,I'd best tell them too.I know they had to go for a English test about a year ago and it cost them hundreds as they had to travel to i think Leeds,as we live in Chester it cost them a few hundred pounds in rail fares etc etc.She managed to pass but I am sure she got a 2 year visa and not ilr so they are proably unaware of this.My wife sometimes sees her and her baby at the local childrens playgroup.Am i right in thinking that your wife was unable to remain in the uk because she did not pass a eng test?It just gets worse.This is peoples marriages and lives,it should not come down to a eng test or finances as to whether a family can remain together.I just find it absoulutly disgusting and very very disturbing.I have decided whatever happens that we will remain together as a family which might mean us going to live in Australia which would mean my wife selling her family home where she has lived all her life and which has so many memories of her parents.The information that BNP members were employed by the UKBA is just sickening as is the claim by the BNP that the current govt currently in power here in the UK has stolen their immagration policies.I can only imagine the heartache that you have been through being separated from your wife,I hope you can get her back as soon as possible.
Hi James. My wife was here on a 27 month spouse visa that expired on 29 Jan 2011. She could not apply for a new visa until beginning Jan 2011. My wife is Thai I have know her since 1984. I worked in Saudi. I suffered two hernias and was advised to go to Bangkok Mission hospital to get them fixed. My wife's mom looked after me. I met the family. Her dad was french. So I have known my wife a long time.
In Nov / Dec 2010 the UK Govt introduced the new English tests I mentioned. My wife had been in the UK from Oct 2008.She applied for a new visa at the beginning of Jan 2011. She was refused a visa and told to take the new English test.
I went on line and looked at the test. It was clear to me it was a scam. It was run by Pearson Edexcel and the nearest to us was Holborn London.
I took the sample test on line. It was clear to me it was a scam and although my wife had been taking English lessons for the two plus years she had been in the UK the lessons she had did not prepared her for this computerised Pearson Edexcel test.
Conclusion was the test was designed to fail not pass applicants because the Govts policy was to reduce the number of NON EU immigrants!
So my wife only had about two weeks not enough.I got her a ticket and she flew back on the 27 Jan so as not to outstay her visa! I go there couple of times a year for an extended stay.
Someone asked the UKBA had they verified the Pearson English test was suitable. The UKBA said NO they had taken the providers assurance it was suitable! But they didn't say what it was suitable for i.e. failing applicants and charging them £130 each time they take the test!
This is the kind of scam that May Green and the UKBA get up to with Cameron's and the Tories backing - plus some Lib Dems like my MP! Peter's MP a Tory is the same.
We have learnt this over the past year. Its a dirty scummy scam that needs exposing.
Cameron likes to flaunt himself to the world as a democrat fair minded and 'one of us'.
But thats just pure crap and now the British people are beginning to realise it. All the people I know know it. My next door neighbour is a retired Deputy Head Teacher she knows it. My wifes English teachers know it. Other neighbours friends and people we know on the bus all know it. But this scummy lot get away with conning the UK public.
We know a retired Judge and QC. He likes my wife very much and always asks about her.
When I told him about it and how May Green operate and the UKBA reports he said and I quote '' The UKBA is an open door to corruption''!
The Judiciary talk between themselves and they know whats going on in the UK with May & Green.
It needs the oxygen of publicity world wide t expose Cameron's claim the UK is democratic civilised and considerate! Let the world know Cameron isn't a democrat. He and his Coalition Govt are complete HYPOCRITS. So if you can get the OZ press to tell our story then good on you mate because you have support from some true Brits with true grit ok!
Hi Allan,It's just a disgrace,How can someone be separated from their Wife for failing a test?It is also not discrimonatory to even demand a test for non native English speakers?I called my friend mentioned last night and told him about the proposed new income regs,he had no idea,his wife is Thai too and he's going to come around one night this week and have a look at this board.I know he's got a whole heap of things to say about the English test that his wife was forced to take and he did tell me it was make or break as they were unaware of any such test until about a month before her last visa expired.Sorry for the late reply i just finished work although do not know why I bothered never going to get 26,000! My wife and i both work in part time jobs around our baby but combined we earn about 16,000 which as i mentioned we live very comfortably on.I don't like knocking a country when i live here but this is getting real hardcore.I gave a damn good job up back home to come here as my wifes mother was dying of cancer,now to be told after paying thousands on visas that I proably won't be allowed to even apply for ILR when my current visa expires, I just feel like I have been totally conned.I never had any idea about all this.I called a mate back home earlier,he has a french wife,after having obtained her initial visa they got a call from the imm people over there 1 year after she arrived to check the marriage was still on,then that was it,no extra fees,no tests,seems like ayter you get a visa to enter Australia you're in,no set income requirements either,so i do not know why this govt here is attacking families ALREADY here,it's just so wrong.I hope you can get your wife back here,Thailand is a great country which I been to alot but to not issue a visa because of a failed eng test is just crazy.I failed the life in uk test which is why i am on another 2 year FLR,had a look at that eng test too,it seems more memory,i did not have a clue on what i was supposed to be doing and it definetly beared no relation at all to everyday english.This whole system seems to be geared to people failing.I am mailing off a heap of stuff to the Aussie paper including printouts from this board,told then I think it is imperitive that they run the story.I think Daily mirror could be a possible too as it's obvious to me that the general public have no idea as to what exactly is going on.I was telling my work mates today..shocked and appalled.What possible advantage has this govt gained by not issueing her a visa to stay here? It seems to me rather than spending money here in the UK economy that you are now forced to travel to Thailand and spend it there! It doesn't seem very clever,it seems to be just bloody mindedness from the UK Govt.Cheers for your support,support you too mate.I think these new proposals could possibly bring things to a head as I believe it will affect citizens from Australia,US,Canada who won't lie down so easily.I been in touch with the Embassy today,they did not seem to know anything about the proposed income regs and have requested that i put my concerns down in writing which I will do.
It's something I am certainly not going to accept lightly as bascially I have moved here with my UK wife after having given my employment up in Australia and despite us having a house with no rent or mortgage to pay and earning enough money to cover all bills with around 200 a week SPARE cash,which I might add is spent in the UK economy, the UK govt then says that we are not earning enough so after having squeezed as much money as possible out of us for visas at which the time of application we were led to believe would lead to ILR in the UK,we are then forced to return to no established home and unemployed.I really cannot see how this would be accepted.
Just to add to the topic that as far as i know the £18000-26000 was simply a recommendation to the government. i've not heard anything about whether this will be taken up, and if so (it probably would in some fashion) then at what threshold, or how it would be applied (eg treating someone who owns their own house without any mortgage differently from someone with no assets). When i wrote to my MP about the matter, with such considerations of mortgage differences he (a LibDem, which is part of the present coalition) said he felt the government would take a flexible approach to any implementation.
There's a news roundup here - http://www.globalimmigrationsolutions.co.uk/news.htm
d
Hi James and D its been published that the new regulations the Govt introduced have not made a difference to NET immigration figures. May has published her target to get immigration down.
This is purely political so this Coalition can claim they are tackling UK immigration. But UK nationals are NOT emigrating so the NET figures are not dropping. Go on the Guardian website on search type in 'immigration uk' there is a lot of useful information/ reports on that web site.
I suggest it is prudent to assume T May will introduce the income level barrier because she doesn't care about the affect on marriages and she wants to reduce immigration into the UK!
Yes James I now spend money in Thailand that I would normally spend in the UK. We have a condominium over there and my wife lives there. Her son is 12 yrs he did live with her uncle and family but now he lives with her.Its worked out well and he's a cracking lad. He calls me his father now and he emails me in English. He thanks me for supporting him and tells me what he's doing at school like learning his English. He's just finishing at Primary school and he has been doing a show for all the parents on Khon Thai which is traditional Thai dancing wearing the traditional Thai costume. My wife emails me about 5 times a day and he emails 2 times a day so they both keep me busy. I am happy they have this time together so its a consolation. I can go see them for 60 days at a time there's no problem getting a visa & cheap.
The UK really is a disgrace to its own nationals and their spouses. I asked my MP about my Human Rights to a Family Life under ECHR Article 8 and he said 'he wasn't a lawyer'. He isn't an MP representing his constiturents either! That's UK politicians they are all about themselves their expenses and pensions. I hope your efforts get an airing in OZ - good on yer!
James do you know their are other MRN websites airing this same problem that can be viewed?
There is one titled 'should English be the language of love' by Ruth White which has a lot of Brits who posted there.It might be worth checking it out and adding it to your favourites - I do.
There's another titled ' migration the poor need not apply' . They all report on this subject and are worth checking out for different points of view & information from different people.
The Guardian and the Independent are worth checking out as well. The Mail has some info but you get a lot of people blog on their who suspiciously look like BNP or EDL memebers OK! So best ignored ok.
James if you are wondering how my wife has a 12 yr old son she was married to a Thai man who played her around and she divorced him over ten yrs ago.
Her mother died and I went over it was after that we decided to get married and be together.
Just my two cents as i feel the whole matter quite strongly... i think the Migratory Advisory Committee who recommended the income levels of £18000-26000, are failing to grasp something fairly basic about money, and that is, that the issue should not about income, but about whether people are generally speaking productively working, whatever their income.
If a person works a full day and everyone is being paid fairly, the money flows in and that worker is paid over £18000 and he then pays taxes which cover his NHS etc.
If however he works a full day and earns for it a mere £5/hr, his hard work still causes the money to flow in, but instead the money is not being given to him, but is being given to, for example, a high-paid boss, who then pays from the money-flow to the government in tax. However it is the £5/hr workers who are earning under £18000 who actually create the money flow which is being paid in tax, and subsidising them with available healthcare is only right to rebalance the exploitation of their work.
On the other hand it could be that the boss isn't highly paid at all, because the goods are sold cheaply dur to competition. This just leaves customers with more money in their pocket, which they then spend elsewhere. So it all reaches the government in tax one way or another.
The important thing, therefore, is not income levels, but whether people are living constructive lives, irrespective of whether they are earning £5/hr or £50/hr...
d
D the Migration Advisory Committee are a bunch of right wing Tory cronies all with plenty of money themselves who are seeking ways to satisfy their racist Tory political mates in Govt.
As you say they don't think about those aspects. They think 'how can we stop more immigrants getting into the UK?They can't stop EU nationals so they target NON EU nationals.
Then they set the next barrier which is a scam English language test they know people will fail.
When that doesn't work they look for another barrier and they calculate how many migrants they can stop by setting a level of income.Which they can manipulate and raise as they please to stop more migrants! They do it this way to try and make it look thought out and objective. Well its both of those the objective to reduce the number of migrants and thought out how best to achieve that and make it look as if they are giving due consideration to the Human Rights Act. Thats the Hypocracy because they see the HR Act as an obstacle to their objective.
Thats why PM talks of a UK Bill of Rights in its place. To accept what he wants and not whats already in the HR Act. He is playing games and more concerned about his international image because how can he preach human rights to other nations if they can say 'look what you are doing? Thats why it all needs exposing as a big PR exercise.
Don't forget PM Cameron is a PR man turned politician and he gets the MAG to think up his dirty policies and May to implement them with her lacky Green who when he was arrested in the Commons turned to Andy Coulson who worked for Murdoch!
Who has now been arrested again Rebekah Brooks! Who did she work for and with and went horse riding with? Right PM D Cameron. Small world isn't it?
Hi Allan and D,The situation you're in D sounds similar to ours,right now we just do not know what financial requirements will be required to allow me to stay here along with my wife and son.It's great to hear that your Wife and Stepson have you in their corner Allan and that despite your enforced separation,that you still manage to visit them twice a year,they should be able to visit you just as easily too but as we know it's not that easy with the current bash a non eu citizen that seems to be in operation here.The more I read and research the worse I feel.I bought a heap of newspapers yesterday,first I saw that this Govt wants to bring in secret courts WHICH i also read are ALREADY IN USE for certain immagration cases!It makes me ask for what possible reason would a Govt that claims to be democratic want to bring in secret court,what are they trying to hide from the general public.Even the daily mail a paper which I stopped buying about a year ago due to it's seemingly never ending and what I found to be insulting views on NON EU migrants in this country, seems to be against this idea.Then today I see that the police want water cannon to quell riots! Why would the Govt want to gear up for riots and public disorder??It really makes me ask exactly what is going on.There was also a article from Duncan Smith in which he quite correctly stated the importance and advantages of Children having a stable family life with BOTH parents,if this is the case then why do this Govt seem intent on de stabilising families if one of the partners in not a EU CITIZEN!It seems totally hypotcritical given the problems that I and many others are facing because I happen to be NON European.If I was not from a English speaking country then in all probibility I would have failed the English test and would have had to have left both my wife and baby and returned home.It appalls me that non EU citizens and thier BRITISH spouses that LEGALLY reside in the UK,and who have worked and paid taxes here all their lives,have spent thousands on visa and have proved their capability to support their NON EU spouses in order to be granted entry clearance in the first place,now have less rights than Europeans who can enter this country without even a visa, and who have never paid taxes here..it's just sems like a Euro club to me.
Hi James good to hear from you mate. Your a pretty sharp guy your catching on quick and your absolutely correct the way the UK is moving is frightening. I have been thinking this as well its becoming a 'bad' place to live.
I also thought about your case and your wife and son. I suggest because you have a young son who has a UK passport and live in your own home in the UK you have a strong case to stay in the UK. Your family have the Right to a Family Life under Article 8 of ECHR!
Can I suggest you contact Liberty UK and ask their advice? They just may be able to help you in some way. Its just a thought. I know you can email them I did myself once.
I don't know what your wife's and your personal feelings / situation is but you have summed up the UK well. It may be you decide that selling up and moving your family back to OZ may be the better long term option for you all as a family. The UK isn't getting easier and the future doesn't look good. I have been considering the same question. Thailand actually offers better living now!
But I am older my roots are deeper. But looking at the UK and thinking of its future it doesn't seem encouraging even from my perspective. Good honest respectable self sufficient people aren't encouraged in the UK now. But criminals torturers and terrorists are! So somethings wrong somewhere! This Govt only seems to be making it worse not better! So considering the options has to be done. Selling up moving abroad and taking your assets has to be a considered option even for me! Especially if things get worse not better. regards to all allan.
James just an after thought. I read that Sir Nicholas Bratza ( a Brit) who is the top man / Judge of the ECHR in Strasbourg has been in the UK and given evidence to a Parliamentary Select Committee. Now the UK is trying to get ammendments / changes to the ECHR in its favour so the Coalition Govt can implement its own ideas and regularions i.e. make its own rules in the UK legal.
I picked up that Sir Nicholas Bratza told the Parliamentary Select Committee he was against any changes to the existing ECHR treaty!
There are 47 signatories to the ECHR and the UK is only one! So the UK has to convince 46 other nations to go along with its ideas. As Andrew Neil said on BBC Politics program that is a very difficult thing to achieve and could take years - if at all!
It would mean all the Coalition Govt unlawfull regulations would remain in breach of the ECHR and therefore the UK would be in the ECHR eyes breaking ECHR and UK Laws!
So we wait and see what developes because Camerons Mays and Greens plans on immigration could, just could, all fall apart!
In the meantime I will keep sticking the pins in my effigy of May and continue doing my war dance. Hang on in there folks it could all go bottom up for May and Green yet. Live in hope OK!
The Jan 2012 Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) can be found here:-
http://cream-migration.org/files/MAC_report_jan2012.pdf
It's always worth reading documents for yourself rather than others' views.
What's interesting in reading the outline and summary in the above link, is how inadequate they present their own assessment to be.
d
D its always worth trying to learn from others experience and mistakes. I don't know how much experience you have of the UKBA and immigration visa systems but I have learnt they don't always tell you the facts, They change things without telling and they cannot be trusted.
I went to the Embassy in Bangkok with my wife for her visa interview. When the Entry Clearance Office found out I was with her he asked to speak to me. At first he was very polite.
He had a thick folder with all my details - bank statements, house photos, personal documents, names and addresses and UK phone numbers of referees including a UK Judge and a UK Head Teacher.
The 'interview' turned into an iterrogation! I had Interpol Clearance passes for Security Areas on Oil Fields. I found he was treating me like a criminal. He just hadn't read my file. I asked for it back. He refused to give it back. I then told him my file contained an email from the British Embassy dated two weeks earlier that stated I could come and collect my file! On that he knew I had him and caught him telling lies and just being obstructive. He returned the file and gave my wife her visa without another word.
I worked in the middle East and was used to stringent document checks thats why my file contained everything I could think of. Not copies but original documents OK.
So I was used to being 'examined' by immigation officials from a few different countries.
I will also tell you that when there was trouble in Bangkok and the red shirts took over the airport and passengers got stranded the best help came from the Australians and the worst help from the British. I knew one guy who was respectable had his passport stolen he was treated like a criminal as well. They get a bit of power and it goes to their heads!
My advice is don't rely on what the UKBA / Home Office because they aren't to be trusted! But its up to you just giving you what my experience has taught me.
They sit behind a plastic screen. You cannot take in a camera or a recorder. These interviews should all be taped with a copy to the applicant because they act like Gestapo!
They intimidate the little Thai wives who are Buddhists totally inoffensive and unused to bullying. I wonder if its how they get their rocks off. good luck allan
Hi and thanks for the replies,really appriciate any advice i can get.D i do read the official docs but I am still very very worried about this proposed minimum income requirement in which there is no way we could meet,the document suggests that it could be more if we got a child which we have! So if this comes in we're really stumped.Allan,thanks so much for taking the time to give us your input on this,it could be a real mess.I got another year or so on my visa but from what I am learning it's best to find out and plan things well in advance.I have heard weird stories about the interview procedures,I did not have a interview but I really think for something so vital in peoples lives that it should be filmed and taped as well as having a independant person there to ensure that fair play and rules are adhered to.A INTERVIEW SHOULD BE JUST THAT and nothing more.Why the secrecy?Why no cameras? Things like this should be transparent,just one question,was your wife interviewed in English?If so then would she not have already demonstrated that she was able to speak and understand English in which case how come she had to take a second English test here when if she had alrready been interviewed in English she had already demonstrated that she could speak and understand English.I did not really expect problems of this kind when I came here.As i mentioned before we live in my wife's house here which is bought and paid for so no mortgage or rent to pay and we both work in part time jobs around our baby but we do not earn the levels that would allow me to remain in the UK if these minimum income proposals come in,which just seems absoulutly crazy as we have about 200 a week spare after having paid bills,I also got 30,000 Aus dollar on my credit cards which is COMPLETLY UNUSED so there is no way that we cannot support ourselves.I just cannot understand why or how the govt can demand how much families earn when everyone's situations are so different.I do not know why families are being attacked just because one member is not from the EU.To get the visa in the first place the sponsor,my UK wife had to show that she had accommadation for us,that she was working,as you know all sorts.If she or I had have had any past criminal activity then we would not have got the visa so it is beyond any sort of reason why we now seem to be getting attacked.My wife has lived here all her life,her parents and grandparents too,generations,she owns the house we live in,we are both working so I do not see what the problem is.I am not eligible for benefits as contary to the lies that Damien Green puts out this is a condition of my and other NON EU spousal visas so we do not cost this country a penny.We take holidays in the UK,i LOVE SCOTLAND and spend money in the economy so these new proposals just seem totally crazy,I just see it as a attack on families of which one is a NON EU citizen.It is obvious to me that the vast majority of people married to a NON EU citizen are working,have their own homes and HAVE BEEN LAW ABIDING ALL THEIR LIVES,if not then they would not have got the visa for their non EU spouses in the first place.It's also a fact that family migration only makes up a small part of the people arriving in the UK,about 50,000,less than a preimier football staduim and this is not counting the family migrants which have left the UK,so these new proposals jsut seem to be designed to cause families of which one of the partners is a non EU citizen to split up.I am getting a bit scared living here now,this is nothing like what I expected.I have to ask why is the human rights act accepted by the other 40 odd member states but not Cameron?It makes me ask what exactly does he have planned??We are talking about our future here.It's my wife's house and I know it means alot to her but she is getting very worried about recent events so we are talking about returning to Australia,we certainly wouldn't get problems on this scale thrown at us from the Govt.It's not easy to get a visa there but once you got it,and the marriage is still on after a year,that's it! NO TESTS,NO INCOME REQUIREMENTS.It's looking to be the best option as all this uncertainty will at some point start to affect our son at some point,something none of us want.Thanks for all your advice,really decent of you.
James I posted because I want people like yourself to know of our, my wife and I, our experience OK. My wife went to the interview saying she could speak Thai and English. Well she obviously speaks Thai and she could then speak English with me - although then not conversational English - or english where anyone spoke fast - even when I spoke to her fast.
The ECO in BKK Brit Embassy wasn't English. He was a Scot with a Scottish accent! I could understand him but my wife had never met a Scot before. But there was a Thai lady interpreter.
This Scot ECO told my wife she wasn't telling the truth! My wife is a devout Buddhist she doesn't tell lies. Its not her nature. her culture and against her practise. She's never had to tell lies. So when this ECO with a Scots accent ( not an English accent ) accused her of telling lies she was shocked and she told him to 'ask my husband he's outside'! So I got called in.
Its a tactic of the UKBA / ECOs to interrogate and confuse applicants. It puts the applicant off and confuses them. I don't think my wife had ever had someone call her a liar before it shocked her! That's how they work they bully and they confuse and then they try to get applicants to make a mistake very often because the applicant doesn't understand. They are in a position of power, there is no record, there is no independent witness, they are little tin gods! So they bully! They try to destroy the applicants self confidence and dominate!
I was different. I had travelled was used to immigration and as an Oil Field Transport Supt wasn't easily bullied. I knew and had the confidence to withstand the manner and questioning.
Since then in the 27 months my wife lived in the UK here with me her English has improved.
She went to English lessons twice a week but not to pass the Pearson test! That's new!
She can speak to all our neighbours and people we know on the bus and in the shops. She goes out shopping on her own and she uses credit cards and she's completely responsible and trustworthy. A retired Judge we know likes her very much and always asks about her.
James as a Brit national the UK now scares me. Its getting more authoritarian and this Govt are trying to water down the Human Rights Act and replace it with a Bill of Rights! Why?
Only one reason in my mind to weaken the rights of the British people so the ruling elite can dominate. The Tory right, all £miilionaires, want to take the UK back to the pre-Victorain Lord and Master era. They stir up the uninformed right wing who fail to see whats going on.
In the 1930s Hitler did the same in Germany he stirred up hatred against the Jews!
Although racism is illegal in the UK some papers incite it. You referred to one paper yourself.
They feature and slant their stories where the 'sheeples', people who act like sheep, just accept! You have already spotted this and Don Flynn has referred to the same newspapers!
I stick with the Independent and the Guardian for informed comment. But check the rest to know whats going on. This is why I suggested to you thinking about an alternative to staying!
Consider the UK is in a downward trend because the country still lives in the past. The mass cannot see that in the world the UK has lost its markets and the chinese etc have overtaken.
Oz is suppliying China with raw materials for its industries. It could be your best option?
Actually you strike me as a very intelligent and perceptive person. If I was your Dad, and I.m old enough, I would say SELL UP, take your wife and son, go back to Oz YOU HAVE A BETTER PROSPECTS FOR A BETTER FUTURE! But I understand the situation you are in OK. Unless your wife is of the same mind and you are now settled its hard to leave roots!
PS the best TV learn English program shown in Thailand is Australian! I know I watch it.
Hi and thanks so much,we've had a huge talk and looks like we might just go to OZ,spoke to my Dad too,told him about this board he said THANKS SO MUCH TO YOU ALLAN` AND HE SEEMS TO FEEL IT'S ADVICE i SHOULD TAKE.My wife feels the same that we should move to OZ.I think she can rent this place and keep it in her name.My friend with a Thai wife tried to post before but he pressed a button and lost it,he'll try again soon.My Dad said once a govt and media gets the gen pop on side then anything can happen,he said to me you don't want to be targeted son because you're not euro!!My Dad is pretty old fashioned and said he saw what happened over there in Euro in the 40's,there's recently been killings in France and racial riots and racism moving into premiership football here in the UK,He reacons once a govt and media singles out a group of people in this case non euros then that's a ok for racism..it's not good,he said get the hell from there before it gets worse.I'm not worried as I know the BRITS are the best people on earth and I got mates here that no way would i ever make in Australia.
James good idea. Just make sure your wife gets a good agent to act for renting out the house. Check out the agents reputation / reliability there are some 'iffy' ones about! If your wife has a family ask them to keep an eye out for her on the property. Maybe a good neighbour/s.
I have thought about the same because if you reside outside the UK for so many months of the year you don't have to pay tax on the rental income! If there's a problen she can always fly back for a holiday visit to sort things out.
As a young man with a young wife and young son you have to put your families future first. Better to make a move than stay in 'rip off Britain' and put up with this Govt.
Look at todays budget - reduce the tax for £millionaires and hit the pensioners!
So don't forget to tell OZ just whats happening in the UK today. Give the UK Govt the publicity they deserve. good luck allan.
We are in a very similar situation to James.I am a UK citizen born and bred,my wife is from Peru,we married there in May 2008,she entered the UK on a 27 month spouse visa in Feb 2009.We live in our own house which is in a good area which was left to me by my parent.We have a 20 month old daughter who was born here in the UK and who is a UK passport holder.I work full time whilst my wife stays home and takes care of the house and our daughter.My wife was unable to pass life in uk test so in Mar 2011 we obtained FLR which allows her to remain in the UK until Mar 2013.We are hoping that she will be able to either do a ESOL coarse or pass the life in the UK test and be able to apply for ILR when her currant visa expires.We are now both exceptionally worried with regard to the new income requirements as my income is around 17,000 a year and in todays news it appears that the goverment will demand a income of 37,000,which there is no way that we will be able to satisfy.As yet we are not sure if this will apply to applicants applying to enter the uk from abroad to join their family or whather this will be a requirement to allow family members to remain in the UK either on FLR or ILR.I have been all day trying to find out but it's unclear.I also have further concerns about the 5 year probation period that is being proposed as well as a more difficult English test.Will my wife even if she passed the life in uk test be eligible for ILR or will she have to seek further leave to remain as she will not have completed a 5 year probationary period within the UK?If the income requirement is set at 37,000 for couples with a child as I read today for people applying from within the UK then we do not have a hope.I really cannot see how this can in anyway be legal as we live perfectly happily on our income.We live in a house where I have lived all my life.We are both exceptionally worried about these new developments.I was lead to believe by the media that the English test was for applicants from abroad but when it came in,it was for those applying to remain also,a test which cost me hundreds of pounds with travel as the nearest place was Leeds,we live in Wales so we had to travel there.It was a totally degrading experiance,firstly the Test Centre turned out to be a room above a Chinese restuarant.We were told to be there at 11 am,we went by train as I do not have a car,so we spent near 200 pounds on train fares,and another 40 on taxis etc etc.We had to take our daughter with us who was then 6 months old.We arrived there on time,the so called tester was shouting at people in what I believed to be a ploy to upset as many people as he could.This continued until I went and told him that I found his manner to be totally unacceptable.I also asked to see his ID and pointedly made a note of it.Prior to the test I had collected statements from midwives,health visitors etc etc stating that my wife did speak and understand everyday English which I showed to this tester,so I made very clear that I would be asking questions should she not pass this test.As i said we arrived there at 11am,we were still there at 7pm!! We were told that the test would take no more than 1 hour.We had no baby food or a change,no food was provided there and applicants weren't allowed to leave the building.We were treated like scum.The test fee was 130 plus another 50 for express results.I had writted to my MP about this as the UKBA had stated if my wife should fail this test then she would have to return to Peru and re take it until she was able to satisfy this requirement!This in turn would have meant that either I would have had to give up my employment to take care of our daughter(in which case a entry visa for the uk would have been refused as i would not have had enployment)or my wife taking her to Peru,a scenario which horrified our health visitor.She did pass the test but it was at this time that I saw how unhelpfull the UKBA are.The fact that we had a 6 month old baby meant nothing at all,they would have split our family up over a failed English test.It is for this reason that I am now so very very concerned about recent developments.It now just seems to be one attack after another on UK citizens with non eu spouses.As has been mentioned here it is getting very scary living here if your spouse in non european.I really just do not see how a goverment can demand that it's citizens earn a unobtainable amount and then use both emotional and financial blackmail to force non europeans married to UK CITIZENS to take english tests and then break families up if the applicant fails.Now with these financial demands that most of the population does not earn it just seems to be a ploy to cause families as many problems as possible.No family should ever have to put up with these demands which are becoming ever aggressive ever more impossible.Unlike James and Allan a move to Peru is not really a option,it's not a place that I want my daughter growing up in.if it was Thailand or Australia then we could deal with that,infact I'd proably be there now but Peru really is not a place where I'd want to move to.I am getting very depressed with it all.I never thought that I would experiance racism especially in my own country by my own goverment but it's real and it's vicious.If my wife had been spanish then there would have been no need to take the English test!Of coarse both spain and peru speak spanish but due to my wife being peruvian we had to spend hundreds on the test.If that is not discrimination then i do not know what is.If I was european and did not speak a word of english and was married to another european who did not speak english,no test would have been neccessary.To attack families and babies is just deplorable,families which, I might add are law abiding as neither sponsor OR applicant would have obtained a entry visa had either party had any criminal record.It seems that because I am married to a non eu citizen that I will be expected to give my job up,give my house up and be forced into exile due to my wife not being european.I do not know where to turn really,we are now being hounded as a family due to my wife's ethnic background.We are just trying to live our lives but we are now being told to remain as a family we need a new more difficult english test and 37,000 a year.What about things such as my pension that I have paid into for the last 20 years.What about my state pension?I just want james to know that I'll be fighting this as I believe with Children there is a very good case for a article 8 human rights but i know that it's the last thing anyone wants.It's just all the uncertainty of not knowing if we can stay here,where our daughter will goo to school we just do not know.We are getting very worried about the current state of affairs here,worries which no families should ever face.It's like dealing with the sicilian mafia..you satisfy 1 thing then they put more things in your way.It's getting too much,I never thought I would see such vile and blatent racism in this country.
peter, sorry to hear all this
i'm watching this situation carefully, for my own reasons (i'll need to get my wife an FLR before an ILR, planning any children in etc)
however i would say that i am predicting (perhaps foolishly) that the extra income threshold related to having a child would relate to children that you are not the father of, who are coming in with your wife, rather than children you are the father of who are british citizens (such as your own)
your english text experience sounds really extraordinary. i should counter balance this by saying we paid £75 and the test lasted a few minutes. the difference between your experience and ours in the test couldn't be greater - so don't think what you experienced there is universal. i know cambridge was examinging some of the tests. when i applied to cambridge university as a young adult, i arrived for the interview and the interviewer sat with his back to me for 30 mins busy reading something with the occasional grunt whilst i spoke. simply unbelievable, not the sort of experience a 17 year old having his first interview should have, and hardly a loving experience; maybe it's a cambridge thing or something similar. my wife's test here was with a vocational college, i guess they were more in touch (they still took £75 for a few minutes' test though, though i guess some of that would be external costs)...
d
Peter very sorry to read about your situation and you obvious concerns. I admire your frankness in explaning you experiences in full for the benefit of others.
D I suggest in dealings with the UKBA / Home Office and associates it is now advisable to 'assume the worst case scenario as opposed to the best!
It is clearly obvious the these individuals blatantly abuse applicants and try to make the situation as difficult as they can. I suggest that is the attitude that comes down the tree right from the top. I mean the very top!
My experience started in October 2008 when my wife went to the British Embassy in Bangkok for her vsa interview. It was an interrogation. I was with her and I was interrogated.
I am a UK national! My dossier included the name/s of a UK Judge and Head Teacher as referances who were contactable. But that information was totally ignored!
My conclusion is that these individuals are in a position of a little authority and they are trained to be deliberately abusive to applicants in order to make them vulnerable. Because what can they do? As a UK national I fought back. But I do not want to put my wife unnecessarily through that experience again. This UK Govt is desperate to reduce immigration. good luck.
Normal Thai people are all Buddhists. They are very polite and see that kind of behavior as very offensive and low. My wife was shocked a UK Embassy Official could be so 'arrogant'!
I have concluded they are trained to be like that because it un-nerves the applicant and makes them vulnerable! Its bullying in order to gain some advantage and thats what we are seeing from the UK Govt. They are 'bullying' the NON EU spouses of UK Nationals and in doing so just 'trashing' ECHR Aritcle 8 - which is in fact part of UK Law i.e. they are breaking UK Law.
I think it is prudent to expect the worst from both UKBA officials and the GOVT,and I speak from experiance.It has been proven in a leaked document this week EXACTLY what May's agenda is..To make things a difficult as possible for UK citizens with non EU members of family.Firstly,she has gone for the MAXIMUM level that was reccommended by the MAC,WANTS TO INTRODUCE A B1 ENGLISH TEST AND EXTEND THE PROBATIONARY PERIOD FROM THE CURRENT 2 YEARS UPTO 5 YEARS.Peter,our experiance in Leeds was very similar to yours,we had a baby with us too and were kept there for around 8 hours!Unfortuanatly,from what I am able to gather it seems that these proposed new income requirements WILL apply to those seeking leave to remain from within the UK,requirements which will affect me as well as other people on this board.Peter and James,from reading your posts it seems if you are not already doing so then start claiming Child and Working tax credits,which,from your incomes would amount to 60 or 70 pound a week.James,even though you are not entitled to claim,YOUR WIFE IS,so if you are not recieving this money please make sure you claim it.Allan,really feel for you,my wife is Thai also(si sa ket)as far as our situation goes we also homeowners with no mortgage or rent and are getting along nicely on my wage which amounts to 17,000 a year.My wife stays home to look after our daughter.I DO claim working tax credits and child tax credits,I didn't used to until I had to shell out for English tests,after that I decided to claim what I am entitled to.We got 13 months left on my wifes visa so we're worried too.Peter,what D said is correct,you will NOT have to have a income of 37,000 pound as your daughter is a UK citizen,I am in the exact same situation.It's ironic that the internet is full of very worried UK citizens and yet I see in the paper yesterday that a terrorist has just been moved to a bigger house at the tax payers expense and now claims to be the happiest man in England,maybe he paid to have dinner at number10!As yet I would not worry too much,these ARE only proposals and if they come into the relevant immigration rules I have a feeling they will quickly find their way to the courts where I am pretty sure they will be deemed exactly what they are..illegal.
andy its very interesting to read your experience and comments. They seem to back up all our respective experiences. You make some good points which will hopefully be helpfull yo some on this webside. Its what we all need a full frank input and discussion between us so we can fully understand whats going on and give support to each other.
My wife has a son she had left in Thailand with her brothers family. We have now brought him to live with her and he's now 'adopted' me as his 'father' so our situation has moved on a bit.
I would not have him sent back to live with his uncle now. I want my wife to enjoy her son and for him to enjoy his mother. I now love him like my own son who I lost in 2007.
I can make my own porridge, and I can go stay in Thailand so its no problem for me.
Plus I get about 5 emails a day from my wife and 2 from my son!
That way they are both keeping up to date with their English as much as they can.
But of course circumstances being different they would both be here living with me now.
Actually I love Thailand. I have been going there since 1980 and have known my wife since 1984. But my roots are in the UK and my wife's time here has made her very pro the UK.
So we are waiting to see the developements and then go from there. good luck allan
it looks like there's a few in the same situation.My wife tried to get the working credits but when she phoned they said no way because of imm control so we left it at that.My Mum and Dad can sponsor our visa back to Australia,it's a great board herewith some great views and thanks to everyone especially Allan,he's been a rock.
good on you james I wish I was young enough to be coming with you. When you get home tell your mates some of us poms aren't so bad . we also like gold. good luck allan
ps don't forget the rest of us here ok. tell our story give us some publicity thanks mate.
jAMES,get your wife to call and get a application form for working and child Tax credits,she IS entitled to them,infact I even used our tax credit documents as part of my wife's application for FLR a year ago as there are both names on it,you can also claim backpay for the past 3 months.I called and was initially told that we were not eligible due to immigration control but when I pointed out that I was not subject to any immigration controlthey sent the relevant forms.On the basis of what you mentioned about your income in your aforementioned posts it should work out at around 72 pound a week!It seems to me that to be given incorrect information is becoming quite an occurance in modern day UK,you only have to have a look at the spin and lies that people such as Damien Green have fed to the media in an attempt to turn the general public against non eu migrants,these include....
Non eu spouses come to the UK in order to start milking the benefit system!!..WRONG!!As anyone can testify on a non eu spouse visa there will be a endorsement reading..No recoarse to public funds!Non eu spouses married to UK citizens are entitled to NOTHING upon arriving in the UK.
Family migration is a problem..WRONG,Family migration only accounts for a mere 20 percent of all NON EU MIGRATION TO THE UK.In fact there are currently 160,000 ILLEGAL immagrants in the UK,SOMETHING THE CURRENT UK GOVT are doing nothing about preferring to target established UK citizens and their NON EU spouses as these are easier targets.
and what we are experiancing now,what has been fed to the media suggests that the new proposed income levels are to be applied to spouses and family members applying to enter the uk from overseas..WRONG..As i aforementioned these proposals WILL also apply to those already in the UK and who are seeking to remain in the UK once,again this has been distorted in an attempt to gain public support.If the public were asked if families should be split up due to a UK spouse not earning a minimum of 25,700,then the answer would be no. If the public had of wanted policies such as this, then they would have voted the BNP in during the last general election.
As yet I would advise anyone on this board NOT to give up their and their families RIGHTS to remain in the UK if that is what you so desire.Do not forget it's your or your UK spouses country EVERY bit as much as it's Cameron,May's or Green's country.Allan I can relate to youe experiances with regard to the UK embassy in Bangkok,I have seen people coming out of there crying..Bullies!! If you stand up to em they do not like it!!
Andy that's why I am keeping my roots in the UK and go visit my wife and son in Thailand.
I won't be driven out of my / our country by a discriminatory, racist, facist Tory led Coalition Govt that nobody voted for. A Coalition that was 'stitched together' by Cameron & Glegg for their own personal benefits!
Camerons 'we are all in this together' act is starting to be seen for what it is total hypocracy.
In todays ' I ' page 7 is a report that Adrian Beecroft a Venture Capitalist has given the Tories £593,000 since Cameron became leader in 2005.
Beecroft has promoted the idea, which Cameron has accepted, that ' companies be allowed 'to sack unproductive workers' with no recourse to the unfair dismissal procedures!
Cameron has apparently accepted this idea and wants to implement it. But the Lib Dems have opposed it.
Its been kept a secret but even the Whitehal bureaucrats are against.
It shows Cameron's true colours and his true policy. Cameron is trying to take the UK back to pre Victorian times! Osbournes budget - tax the poor give to the rich - another example.
The discriminatory and racist attack on the NON EU spouses of UK citizens is only another facet of his 'right wing nasty party Tory' policies!
The public cannot trust anything this Govt says and the Home Office / UKBA are their agents!
They are trying to drive UK citizens out and let in Russian £Millionaires escaping Putin bringing their money in which pays for the £2M homes plus investments and taxes.
Its Tory £Millionaires opening the doors to Russian £Millionaires and screw us British citizens!
Would someone here be able to provide a link that shows that the £26000 threshold (or whatever it turns out to be) applies to those already on the 2-year settlement visa going to apply for FLR/ILR rather than those coming in from scratch, as i've not seen anything explicitly state this.
thanks, d
D
Andy said it 'you have to assume the worst with this Govt because their policy is to keep out immigrants' they don't want. They will use every excuse means and trick in the book to achieve it. Your hoping it's not the case but look at the UKBA's record and the Govts policies.
Read the experiences of people posting on this site just how the UKBA / Home Office work.
Read the published information in the press. There's enough of it.
Why would the Home Affairs Select Committee Chaired by Keith Vaz MP for Leicester conclude the 'UKBA is not fit for purpose'?
Why would John Ried when he was Home Secretary state in Parliament the same unless it was true?
Why would a Judge QC I know state - ' the UKBA is an open door to corruption' ?
All the evidence points that this is true and all these informed people are right!
Andy is saying we have to face reality there's no point in trying to think the UKBA / Home Office are a benevelent group who like us, want help us, when all the evident shows they don't!
It might be unpalletable to have to accept but there is no point in just 'hoping' its not true!
My experience is that when they introduce a regulation its immediate and it affects everybody!
D, Here's just one website that stated that the minimum income rules WILL apply to those applying to remain in the UK as well as those applying to enter the UK.Go to
www.premiervisas.com
Enter the website and go to immigration news,on there you will find the relevant information.I also have a friend who's wife WAS going to apply for FLR in May,he has employed a visa lawyer to obtain this and he has been advised to go all out for ILR as they have informed him that the new rules WILL be applied to those seeking to remain in the UK as well as those seeking to enter the UK.She is now trying to pass the life in the UK test before applying in May.It's a worry and it's disgrace.
I think the fact that May has gone for the maximum level says it all as did the timing of when the English tests were implemented,LATE NOV!! A time that seemed designed to cause maximum disruption as most colleages and test centres would have been closed for Christmas so no chance of even taking a test if a visa was expiring in early Jan!
I now assume the VERY worst!!I am more angry than worried about these proposed income requirements.It suggests that people on lower incomes are not as entitled to a family life as those on a higher income.Allen is quite correct in his comments regarding cameron.It says alot when law abiding,home owning,tax paying UK citizens like ourselves are on a migrants rights forum board trying to scratch around trying to gain information on proposed policies,and James who has given his job up in Australia only to find out that he maybe forced home.
Thanks Andy, i've just taken a look at www.premiervisas.com and i've not spotted explicitly where it says the minimum income applies to FLR/ILR of existing partners who came in under the older rules and are still to apply for FLR/ILR.
You see, i am looking for something explicit to point out to my MP, where it actually states that it is not merely applying to new entrants.
The nearest statement i could find on the site you mention was:-
"The MAC today recommended that a minimum salary of between £18,600 – £25,700 (before tax) should be introduced for UK residents sponsoring a partner or dependent for Citizenship."
Firstly, Citizenship is different from ILR and FLR; for example you can have ILR without having British citizenship.
Secondly, this is the MAC advice, rather than what May has recommended adopting; i think we can assume she's adopting the advice, so i think the important thing would be to establish point one, that it applies to ILR and FLR. When i had written to him some while back about the matter (need to take into account assets, and not to apply new rules retrospectively to existing entrants who have married and come in) he had responded that he was expecting a flexible approach would be adopted. To have something explicit about ILR/FLR, if such is indeed the case (it certainly would affect me), to send to my MP therefore would be invaluable.
d
Looking again at the passage, perhaps it's using "citizenship" as a generic phrase for settlement.
However, even looking at it again, with its references to ILR, i don't feel it's being clear enough that it's applying to existing (prior) entrants rather than new entrants, sufficiently to make the matter clear to my MP. You are probably right they will try to apply it to ILRs of existing entrants, but whether they apply it to FLRs too i cannot see that it is clear at all.
i see there are two phone numbers given on the page; i'll give them a call and see if they can clarify matters.
d
D - if your MP is like all the others he will be as evasive as all the others and the you will not get a clear answer. My MP led me up the garden path for six months. Even then he didn't tell me but I realised he was scamming me.
When I asked my MP about my Human Rights as a UK national he said ' I am not a lawyer'! Yet I see him in the Commons sitting on the front bench next to a prominent QC!
I know others who post here who have written to their MPs, the Immigration Minister, the Shadow Home Secretary and Keith Vaz MP Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee.
I wrote to Yvette Cooper Shadow Home Secretary pointing out the cases (4) that had gone to Court and the list of Judges (8) who had found against T May.
One Judge stated in Court the Home Secretary T May was trying to 'side step Parliamentary scrutiny' - and it was not up to the Judiciary to change the Law - but up to the Home Secretary to put her case before Parliament. But the Home Secreatry never has.
I know some who post on here who have written to Damien Green and got a 'micky mouse meaningless answer'.
In effect all these MPs are evasive and give only 'political' answers because they are politicians and none of them want to put themselves on the line. They just 'don't know or care!
I would have thought the Shadow Home Sec Yvette Cooper would have only been too pleased to have pointed out to the Home Secretary in the Commons that the Judiciary had found against her! Then challenged the Home Secretary to actually put her case before Parliament but not so! Question is WHY? THEY KNOW THEY ARE IN BREACH OF THE ECHR!
Folks I suggest you may be interested in the website - ' OurKingdom' power and liberty in Britain today 28 March 2012 an article by John Grayson of Hallam UNI who works with the South Yorkshire Migration & Asylum Action Group.
John Grayson's article is - ' Politicians reap what they sow - the contradictions of electoral racism! He makes some interesting points which I think demonstrate exactly whats behind this nasty party Tory led Coalition UK Govts Immigration policies.
Our favourite UK politicians, May Green & Cam, get a good mention as does the Tory nasty party 'Caps and contrdictions on immigration.. The article I suggest throws light on the thinking behind the Tory Immigration Policy & why / how we have been caught up in.
I believe understanding your enemy is in every 'fighters' best interests!
Hey Allan you'd be welcome to come to OZ!We phoned the tax credits place and seems we are eligible for the credits they're sending a claim pack and you Andy were pretty near with your estimate so don't know why they said we were not allowed this over a year ago when we phoned before.D we are under the impression that the income changes will apply to those already here,the MAC report states somewhere that it'll apply to those seeking to remain,it's just a mess,when i applied for flr it is pretty much the same as ilr but without having passed the life in the uk test,they both seem to be seen as settlement visas even though flr is only valid for 2 years.I just didn't expect any of this when I came here,the govt is in total contrast with the people of this country who have been great,i got genuine friends here the likes of which I never made in Australia and love the humor here too.Thanks everyone.
JAMES glad you got your tax credits sorted out.D sorry for the late reply.I believe I have found something more concrete for perusal by your MP.If you go to ukba and view the consultation documents regarding family migration then you will find the consultation document by T May.Go to page 30 of this document and there you will find 2 charts,the first is the current immigration policies the second is the proposed immigration policies.On this you will find it says visa or leave to remain under which it states that the new proposed income requirements will be required for both visa and leave to remain.I know how very worried you are with regard to this matter,it's getting impossible.I am going to find out what options are avaliable hopefully this weekend,anything I can find that I believe will be of any help at all to you I will post here.Allan..what do you know about OBTAINING a Thai spouse visa for a UK husband?I been there alot from 1991,thinking of calling it a day here in the UK,HAD ENOUGH.
James when you get back to Oz tell your mates that the ordinary Brits are not bad people.
Its our 'ruling elite' the public school £multimillionaire Bullington Club boys and other politicians who have the finances to get themselves elected that are the big problem in the UK & always has been. They have big egos and they want big power to do as they please.
Our politicians will kiss babies and then steal their lollipops!
This weeks a complete shambles in every direction. Its not the ordinary people its politicians their friends and hangers on. Ordinary people like the rest of us get caught up and suffer!
Tell them as the UK richer get rich our Grannies get taxed, we have to eat cold pasties and the Govt causes petrol panic! They even want to increase the price of our cheap booze!
But they make sure that in Parliament they get subsidised food booze and eye watering ex's for themselves! No wonder the UKs economies is stagnant and many of us are 'mad' about it!
So screwing up the family life of Brit nationals they do without even thinking & they don't care!
thanks for the document (i had just written to my MP when your post came)
i found it here - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/con...
i can see the chart in page 30, of current and proposed systems, but it is not immediately apparent from it what happens to those already here on the current system (2 years, different income threshold). that is, the chart looks to be a presentation of the system in its ideal form (as would be for entirely new applicants), rather than a comment on prior applications still running through their course.
if you could find something in the MAC report that suggests otherwise, or in this report, i would be grateful.
thanks,
d
(i think in the '5 year probationary period for All', the 'for all' likely means to include people who have been in a long relationship before applying (this matter is mentioned in the text), rather than meaning applications prior to the new rules)
d
Andy getting a Thai visa if you have a Thai wife is easy peasy and very cheap.You can get a 60 day tourist visa for about £18 which is what I do for each visit. I use the Thai Consulate at Hull and get good service almost immediately.
You can get a residents visa and report to the Thai police every 6 months I think it is.
You can get a 'retirement visa' if you are retired and have the income. The Thais are very accomodating the opposite of the UK. Just be respectful and they will respect you.
Go online to Thai Embassy for info and if you phone them they are extremely helpful. The opposite of the UK. Thai banks like Bangkok Bank I have found very good.
You cannot buy land in Thailand unless you are a Thai national. You can buy a condo.
But your wife can buy land. My wife has her name on our condo and she owns some land up country.
My wife has a Thai bank account and its easy to sent a Swift money telex transfer.
Legally your children cannot have dual nationality. But you don't need it any way.
The schools are excellant. Even my neighbour in UK, a retired Head Teacher, is surprised about Thai schools. My wife and son / step son they both email her.
My son, whoes 12 in May, has just taken part in a Khon Thai traditional Thai dance show in the traditional Thai costume.
The school took the students to Wat Po Temple in BKK to meet tourists & speak English.
They have scouts and go camping sports volley ball and badminton etc.
We have a condo in Samut Prakan south of BKK its in a new developement and its very nice.
True Thailand is nothing like the UK press like to predict it. The UK press annoy me the way they show Thailand. Living among Thai people it is different.
We have an international school very close and some English teachers live in our condos.
The people are very nice friendly and polite all Buddhists and good people. We have a Buddhist memorial garden just outside / alongside our condos and its very nice & peaceful.
You can shop local or go to Tesco Carrefor or BigC supermarkets. Metered taxis are cheaper and easier than having your own car. The street vendors are very good as well.
The hospitals are good and where we are the 24 hr security is very good. Better than the UK.
Thailand isn't faultless nowhere is. But its very good living. Cheap and now has good standards.
You see how my attitude has changed - compared to how I react to the UK's present situation!
Respect the country, the King, the culture, the way of life and Buddhism. The UK could learn a lot! good luck allan
Thanks for the information Allan,I know samut prakan,we went to a huge outdoor museum there last visit,it was great.I stayed in Thailand for a year on one occasion although it wasn't on any long stay visa,I used to leave the country every 60 days and re enter,that was years ago so thanks for the updated info regarding visas.I am making contingency plans to re locate to Thailand should the GOVT force us out due to unreasonable and what I consider illegal financial demands.We had planned to live there anyway but could really do with another 10 years or so here until I am 50,but given the current hostile attitude to non european spouses and the state that the UK is in,I am of a mind to make the move sooner rather than later.In 26 visits to Thailand since 1991 I have never had any problem there whatsoever.Although it's not possible for me to gain dual nationality my daughter can have both a UK and Thai passport so this is good.To be honest I am getting totally fed up with all the uncertaint and disruptiony that this GOVT is causing in our lives and in our daughters life,so it's either ILR next April or we go,enough is enough.The absoulute rubbish that people like T May are spouting is just unbelievable,she seems to claim that without this minimum income that non eu spouses are forced to live in over crowded accommadation,we live in a 3 bed detached house that is occupied by just myself,my wife and my daughter,integration is another thing she uses in an attempt to disguise her racist policies,my wife knows more people around the neighbourhood and town than I do,and I've lived here for 30 years!She often goes out to the older peole around here with the latest Thai dish she has made!She is very well liked and people are absoulutly appalled at these proposed income changes.I know that certain nationalities do tend to live within their own communities and converse in their own languages,that is their choice,is it not a fact that many UK ex pats do exactly the same?Without the GOVT of where they reside going into a paronoid rage and ordering language tests?Which I am sure many,if not all would fail.How can T May claim to promote integration when her policies promote segragation?To be serious about integration then there MUST be the same rules in place for Europeans and NON Europeans.As history has proven segragation DOES NOT WORK as has been proven in 1950's America and 1980's south africa,so therefore the policies of this current GOVT must be deemed backward to a level that is absoulutly astounding in todays modern world.My dealings with the UKBA started in 2008 ,when after having lost my Mum to cancer a year prior,my Dad developed throat cancer.I then married my wife and later applied for a visa for her to join me in the UK,a visa which,despite us documenting over 3 years of relationship which included my flight tickets/hotel bookings/photos etc etc proving that I had visited her 3 or 4 times a year for the for the past 4 years,the reason for refusal was that we had not included documentation from the date we had met,a refusal which I challenged as on the relevant immigration rules it states that the 2 parties should have merely met,also I asked why would 2 people start collecting evidence from the very first time they had met in order to procurre a visa?Would this not be somewhat suspicious?The visa was finally granted in Dec 2008 and my wife arrived in the UK in Jan 2009 on a spouse visa.The biggest mistake we have made is not applying ILR in march last year but we had faced some difficult times,firstly my wife had a miscarriag in May 2009,then she took care of my Dad who lived with us,such was the care and attention she afforded him,he was able to remain at home until a few days before he died in summer 2010,3 weeks later our daughter was born,so really we had no chance of my wife studying to a level where she would pass life in uk test.It was Jan 2011 that I became aware of the new English test,which I wrote to my MP about,who in turn wrote to the UKBA on my behalf.It upon recieving the reply from the UKBA via my MP that I found out just how very unhelpfull they are.It was stated that a failure to pass the test would mean that my wife would not be able to apply for FLR and would have to return to Thailand!Fortunatly she did pass but now we are faced with insummountable rules regarding finances which I find quite bizarre given the fact that everyone have different circumstances.In my case I do not pay rent or have a mortgage or do not have a car as we live 10 minute walk from the shops and wherever we need to go we are able to pre book rail tickets etc etc.If I was earning 30,000 and had a mortgage of 12,000 a year and a loan on a car to pay then this would take my finances down to around 15,000! so it's a rule that seems to me to be a thinly disguised ploy to refuse entry and/or remove non EU spouses from the UK.D.. We are having a meeting at my house tonight with another 6 UK/THAI couples from around the area there is also a barrister friend of mine coming.So far when I saw T MAY proposed policy I have taken leave to remain as to mean those applying to remain in the UK,admittedly it is not definetly clear but from what I know of the UKBA i strongly suspect this to be implemented to all applicants after such a policy is implemented into the immigration rules.For example if this becomes policy on 15 June and a applicant submitts their application to either enter or remain on 14 th June,then the said application will be considered under the current rules,whilst those applying on or after the 15 th June,then this application will be considered under the new rules.I don't know what nationality your spouse is but you will find a huge discussion on....
thailand-uk.com
As yet we can only hope that common sense and fairness prevails,but I am in the process of making contingency plans.
Andy your situation is almost parallel to mine / ours except we were just a short time in front.
One thing in Thailand now you can renew a tourist visa by catching a coach trip from BKK to the Cambodian border and get a new 60 day visa.
I may have misled you about having dual nationality. I understand under Thai Law you are not allowed dual nationality. Except exPM Abhisit he had / has Thai / UK nationality.
I think I know the museum you mention in Samut Prakan and there are a few all very good.
Also the Umper in Samut Prakan they are very helpful we have found. Its a ggod place to live.
Sorry about you previous difficult family problems. That must all have been very upsetting.
Then you mention your wife what she does, how she is and making friends. Again that is the same with my wife Minu. Thats how all Thais are and they are 'infectious' and all the people we know ask after my wife every time I meet then and when is Minu coming back?
Minu is pure Thai we have pictures of the King her Buddha statues and wall altar. I have to wear a pin in my lapel showing I am a supporter of the King. Which I am and the Buddha.
Please give my / our best wishes to all your Thai friends and tell them the British people are not like the British Government. If I can be of any help please ask. I wish I was near you and could be at your meeting especially as you mention your barrister friend.
I think we all have a good case and the Home Sec is breaching ECHR / UK Law. But its the money to fund a challenge considering the Govt have public funds.
I have often wondered what is the feasibility of a group action and could it be done on a NO WIN NO FEE basis? It depends on the strength of the case but we are all legally married.
Mays regulations are not ECHR or UK Law and the clauses under ECHR Article 8 do not cover her actions. May has already been taken to Court and the Judiciary have found against her.
Chapti lost the case but I suggest it was weak in that Mr Chapti had never set foot in the UK.
I would be intersted to know what happens out of your meeting. In fact I think we all would. good luck best wishes allan.
Thanks Allan.appriciate that,it would be good to have you around.I am hoping we can get some points clarified tonight,from what I can find on the internet it's unclear as yet as to whether or not these new income proposals will apply to non eu spouses already present and settled within the UK,but there is a suggestion upon reading T MAY'S proposed policy regarding this matter that they will apply to those already here.I want my friend to go through what paper work I have printed out and also give advice as far as he is able as to where I and anyone else in the same situation would stand with regard to FLR AND ILR applications without having this neccessary 25,700.Once again there are different rules being made for families of which one is a non european,as the income support level for couples is set at 105.00 pound ,which is the level the GOVT pay to the unemployed,which is the amount the GOVT deem appropiate to live on,so why OR HOW can they possibly demand a UK citizen with a non eu spouse earns 25,700? If this is the level now deemed neccessary to live in the UK then does this mean that anyone claiming income support can expect their payments to raise to this level?I don't think so!Once again it's one rule for europeans and another for non eu people residing in the UK.I am also appalled that these income levels WILL NOT apply to european citizens either residing or gaining entry to the UK with their non eu spouses!It's only British citizens which are been targeted!Isn't it great that my ancestors fought in wars to protect our freedoms and now the ancestors of the people that did their best to destroy this country have more rights here under Cameron than British citizens!As i mentioned before my wife,her names Han,has had no problem at all making friends here,she is well known in the supermarket,the bookies,she likes a bet!! Has alot of british friends,goes to the childs playgroup every week,and usually calls on at least one or other of the neighbours most days and they come here.She won't miss the soaps,emmerdale and coronation st, so these lies that May is telling that 25,700 is needed to help integration is absoulute rubbish!She loves gardening and spends hours in summer getting the garden better than I ever seen it,we have BBQ with all the neighbours around,so she settled in here no problem.We were in the process of trying to get through the life in the uk test,but if we need the extra income then what's the point? It's just an embarresment to me as a UK citizen,everything is now so uncertain in our lives due to the ever more aggressive policies of this GOVT.I was furious about having to pass a Eng test in order to gain FLR as I see FLR as something that should be granted without the need for any test as if applying for FLR rather than ILR then it means that for whatever reason,the applicant has not been able to study to a level where they could be expected to pass the life in the uk test,so I believe that FLR SHOULD be granted without the need for any test whatsoever.As i said before I am seriously looking at re locating to Thailand.My wife's mother isn't getting any younger,she has 1 sister and 1 brother and a nephew,all of whom I get on very well with.Infact when we go back I rent a villa and we all have a couple of weeks by the sea together.Having looked at things i am really starting to ask myself why I am worrying so much as I could sell the house here,it's in a good area,buy a flat here,they're building brand new ones just 200 yards away,we could rent this for 700 a month,and we'd still have enough to finish the place of in Thailand and also buy a villa maybe in Hua Hin that could be rented to the holiday market,and still have enough to show in a Thai bank for visa purposes.Financially it might make more sense,especially when I consider we would not have to pay for anymore trips to Thailand to visit family.My mum and dad are dead,looking at it we could be better off.Any information I can gather tonight I will post here.
I have got information from the meeting we had saturday night and legally it seems that any attempt to apply these rules especially to those already in the UK would open a whole can of worms.Firstly to attempt to split families up would be illegal under article 8 of the ECHR,such a move would also be denying members of immediate UK family members this right ie mothers,fathers etc etc should their son/daughter be forced to re locate from the UK due to the GOVT incorrectly claiming that they do not earn enough in order to support their non eu spouse.These claims can be dis proven by presenting evidence such as bank statements,proofs of assets such as property deeds and the obtaining of a credit rating report which states that states that the UK sponsor is infact in a position to support their non eu spouse.There is also another route for a non eu spouse that have children that are in possestion of a UK passport to apply to remain in the UK if the GOVT attemp to apply the minimum income rules to those already in the UK.This is known as Discretionary leave to remain.This is for applicants whos application will fall outside the normal immigration rules ie failed English test,UK spouse not earning the minimum income requirement,but applicants can apply via this route on humanitarian grounds ie having a child in the UK .It is important to get the support of your MP to lodge an application via this route,as well as having a strong case to remain in the UK,which should include reasons why it would not be practical to re locate from the UK such as having a established home here,having employment here,children settled here,it can therefore be proven that re location would mean emigrating to a place where,as you have established your family life within the UK,that the family would have no home or income therefore sufficient hardship could be proven.We had 2 Thai ladies here on Saturday both of whom failed the Eng test but both of whom applied under this route as they have children here and both were granted 3 year visas under this route.In the case of Eng test it is important to try the test prior to application.Anyway,I hope this have been of some help.
some very interesting points and advice raised here as my wife,chinese national,and i, uk national are or were planning to re locate back to britain in sept.we have been married and living together in HK for the past 2 years,we are in the uk now visiting my family.we both work in HK but do not earn the required level, and we had no idea about this until we saw it in a newspaper at which point i have been trying to find out more from the internet.seems that despite my elderly parents now struggling to get by doing day to day tasks,gardening,shopping etc etc that due to these demands that my wife and i won't be able to offer any assistance to my elderly parents as it appears we will infact be banned from the uk due to my wife's ethnic background.
I read Andy's very interesting post about the meeting on Saturday night.
He confirms the Matrix advise that was published by Liberty UK in Sept 2010 in regard to ECHR Article 8 and the 'Right to a Family Life'. All signatories of the ECHR, which the UK is signatory, and it is UK Law!
The UK is a signatory of the ECHR. But it breaches Article 8 of the ECHR Right to Family Life!
What is further concerning to read is that the '2 Thai ladies with children in the UK have only been granted a 3 year visa to stay in the UK with their family!
So what happens at the end of those 3 years? The children will be 3 years older. If their mother has to return to Thailand and leave them in the UK what kind of cruel inhumane treatment is the UK Govt imposing on these families and children?
Now we read 'hk expat's' post and we have a further UK Govt inhuman treatment situation.
HK expat and his wife want to stay in the UK. They have aged parents who they want / need to assist in their twilight years.
But again they will have problems getting a visa to remain in the UK to take care of their parents! Parents who are UK nationals and part of their family!
So we go from the extremes of cruel inhumane treatment of children and their mothers to the same with the aged parents and their 'children' who their ''family'' wish to take care of them!
The inhumanity & cruelty of this UK Coalition Govt becomes more extreme deeper & wider in its Right Wing Racist Xenophobic Policy towards the NON EU spouses of UK citizens & their families!
Whilst i hate party politics, given that it exists, the people of this forum may be pleased to hear that labour is soaring ahead of the conservatives, and who knows, some of these decisions highlighted may become changed in the next election.
d
D don't cross your fingers too hard. I read that it was the Home Office that drew up these new regulations under Labour. But they were not implemented because it was too close to elections. Now that the Con-Dems have implemented them Labour could just leave them.
But there's no harm living in hope just don't rely on it too much! Lets hope I'm wrong.
Maybe we will have a better chance when George Galloway becomes PM and Respect are the Govt - about 100 yrs- if ever!
D I don't want you to think I am just pouring cold water on what you suggest. I am posting from personal experience. Last year I discovered my own MP was misleading me from Jan to June!
I then wrote to Keith Vaz as Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee and MP for Leicester.
I wrote to Yvette Cooper Shadow Home Secretary pointing out the Matrix Advice to Liberty UK of September 2010 and that the Coalition Govt regulations breached ECHR & UK Law.
I pointed out to Yvette Cooper that the Home Secretary's new regulations had already been challenged in Court and ruled to be UNLAWFUL.
I pointed out that the Judiciary had stated ' the Home Secreatry was trying to side - step Parliamentary scrutiny and that T May should put her regulations before Parliament!
I had hoped that Yvette Cooper as Shadow Home Sec would see an opportunity to challenge the Home Secretary on these matters in Parliament.
I have waited in vain. Yvette Cooper has never challenged the Home Secretary and Keith Vaz has never had the new regulations explored by the Home Affairs Select Committee!
Whether in the light of the pasteing Labour took at Bradford W when they lost out to Geoge Galloway remains to be seen? But Labour may 'wake up' to the voters who spoke in Bradford.
I will not be holding my breath. I live in hope - its only a glimmer - but I do face the reality!
it's certainly been a surprise when we have looked into settlement visas for me to return to the uk with my wife.i thought it would be a easy to get we had no idea of the problems we are now encountering.i think this is a great board where people have been very frank detailing their experiances and the problems they have and continue to face,it's also great that people are actively helping each other.i left the uk 4 years ago,i am a chef,i went to HK to learn more about chinese/asian cuisine,my wife is now in the final few weeks of teacher training,which rules out us trying to come back to the UK until sept as all her work over the past few years would be for nothing,so we really do not know what to do.it isn't a problem we thought we'd have.in my time in HK i've never had any problems with the chinese regarding my visa to remain there.makes me ask is china now a more democratic place to live than the uk??seems to be.looking at the comments on this board it is obvious that the people here are educated from the level of english,it seems like it uk uk citizens and their families,in my case my elderly parents, that are been targeted for having married a non european.
hk expat your comments about the visa situation in the UK is quite correct. Its inhumane!
I can go into Thailand to see my wife easy peasy - cheaply and with no obstruction at all.
My wife lived with me in our own home. She didn't work and we are financially self sufficient.
My wife has a BA Degree in Business Studies and worked for two International companies.
She mixes well we have good neighbours a retired Head Teacher and a retired Judge QC.
My wife and I have a joint bank account and she studied English twice a week for two years.
She has credit cards shops on her own and makes friends very easily who still ask after her.
But after 27 months in the UK she was denied a new visa because she was required to take a new computer test that the Home Office had brought in just two weeks previous to her applying. That same test a sample was taken by a born and bred English lady who is the Practise Manager at our Doctors surgery. She failed that test & said how can people pass it?
Now the Home Secretary is racking up the minimum income of sponsors of applicants!
This is the UK today since the Con-Dems came into Govt two years ago. Labour are as weak as ditch water and assisting the situation by failing to challenge the Coalition Govt.
The result has been seen in Bradford where labour were trounced by the rank outsider George Galloway. He won the support of new young local voters who were showing their disatisfaction with all the three other parties! The UK Govt are all Multimilliare Ministers who are in contrast allowing in Russian Millionares so much so that parts of London is now dubbed Moscow on Thames. They also have allowed in criminals terrorists and torturers e,g Abu Qatada who has just been given a new bigger house for his family. This is Britain today no room for the good people who have ethics morals are respectable and self sufficient. This is Tory policy today!
Geronimo
Hey mate - re the stuff going on in the Bradford postings - they are winding you up, I wouldnt mind betting they are all the same person anyway - the whole thing is obviously faked.
I am definitely on your side, but I recommend you take a break from this argument. You/ve made you point and its a good one. Enjoy the holiday weekend and stay cool!
Hello Don yes I agree I just wasn't going to let them get away with it OK. The subjects too important good luck to YOU and MRN.
Geronimo - we are in this for the long haul rather than a a quick scrap. Watch out for MRN news about a proper campaign to support family reunion rights. It'll be good to have yu aong for that. All the best now.
Don. got the message. you will have my full support keep me posted. thanks
Hi All.
Damian Green is a conman,and will not answer questions I have put to him on three occasions,neither would Ed Miliband,or Cleggy.My questions were quiet easy,and were not intended to humiliate or abuse anyone.I just wished to know,with ref: to his statement to the House,.Whereby he said****It is only fair,that immigrants who benefit from the system should help fund it.I merely wanted to know what these benefits were,As someone who does not get a visa granted,does not recieve any benefit.How does a successful applicant benefit from the system when the sponsor must clearly show that he or she must have the means( income or capital) to avoid any benefit claims in the foreseesble future.I simply cannot get a reply.The motto we work for you is a load of tosh,we work for ourselves would be closer to the mark.
anonymous - they are all the same they will not respond to resonable enquries because they have no answers. You are not the onle one to have written to MPs Ministers etc and got a very iffy answer. Reason is they are working to targets - net immigration = immigration - emigration.
They only want to let certain persons in that suit themselves. At the moment its Russian millionaires who are buying up London property making it Moscow on Thames!
Of course one of the Russian millionaire bankers got himself liqidated recently. in east London, but that immaterial. I gave up trying to get sensible answers from my MP in June 2011 when I realised he had been leading me up the garden since Jan 2011. Good luck.
Don remeber my little skirmish with a certain group of posters? Well the London Evening News reports that five suspected far-right extremists have been arrested by counter terrorist detectives after race -hate material was posted on-line. They belong to NE version of EDL.
A unit spokesman says that 'all five have been arrested on suspicion of offences under the Public Order Act, publishing and distributing written material which may stir up racial hatred'.
Just a few facts and figures that I have researched with regard to these proposterous proposed changes to family migration.Firstly,as stated by T May in her paper relating to this matter she states that these new changes are in line with the policies that have been adopted in other so called first world countries ie US,Canada,Australia.After having researched the income requirements of these countries, it transpires that although the US does operaste a system that requires a minimum income for the sponsorship of family members seeking to re locate to the usa(which i might add that despite the us having a generally higher cost of living than the uk,the minimum income requirement is far lower than the figures that T May is proposing) that the us does take assests such as property into consideration.In Canada although a minimum income is required to sponsor a family member to re locate to Canada,this requirement IS NOT applied in the case of spouse visas.In Australia,no income requirement is neccessary.After having made comparisons with the 3 aforementioned countries, it becomes obvious that the proposals that T May is trying to force upon the citizens of the uk that has a non eu spouse are flawed and totally unfair,especially when we take into account that eu citizens(excluding uk citizens)WILL be able to reside in the uk without any such financial requirements,ineffect discriminating against it's own citizens,citizens which,in the main, are established in their own homes and who are working and contributing to the economy.Once again we are seeing a 2 tier set of rules.As the law states that the minimum requirement for a couple is currently 105 pound per week,how can it possibly be that if 1 member of a household is a non eu citizen that then the govt deems that a minimum income of 25,700 be required?Such a requirement would exclude an awful lot of people from being entitled to the family life that they are legally entitled to,people which do vital jobs within the community,such as bus drivers,postal workers,nursing staff and a whole host of what could be described as average jobs but which unfortuanatly do not pay the amounts which the govt is demanding in order to sponsor a family visa to the uk,and what about those that give their time up to take part in unpaid work such as lifeboat men and,mountain rescue,vital to our society,yet unpaid?Will these people be expected to give up these unpaid posts and seek additional paid employment if they are in a situation where they are sponsoring a family visa?May incorrectly states that family migrants burden the tax payer,ignoring the fact that family migrants are not exempt from uk taxes.DWP statistics show that foreign born residents that account for 13 percent of the uk population represent only 6.4 percent of benefits claimants compared to 17 percent of uk born residents,figures which trash govt claims that non eu migrants are a burden on the tax payer.As we know the suggested income is at the upper boundry of what the consultation suggested,it also does not consider a familys real expenses or wealth such as house equity,or where they live.The threshold also exceeds the average gross earnings in every region of the country apart from london.The real reason for these changes is in the election pledge,when cameron promised to reduce net migration.The media frenzy that suggests that the uk is packed full and that the population is growing at an alarming rate is quite laughable given the fact that the worlds population is increasing,so isn't only natural that the population of the uk and other countries will grow too along with the global trend?It's also a fact that despite media claims that the uk is packed full,that the facts state that the uk is not in the top 50 when it comes to people to square km density.The real reason for the implementaton of a minimum income requirement is not to decrease migration to the uk,it is an attempt to force britons to leave.The easiest way of doing this is to attack family migration.If a married couple cannot settle,not only has a migrant left,so has a uk citizen,and their off spring,the majority of which were born in the uk and so hold uk passports.This gets net migration down faster than controlling other visas.The paranoia which is sweeping the uk govt and media with regard to non eu citizens has once again reared it's ugly head in the in the fiasco at heathrow recently.Whilst eu citizens were clearing passport control with ease,non eu passengers were being kept waiting for hours to enter the uk.Why?Once again a different set of rules for eu citizens and non eu citizens.Is it really neccessary to treat non eu citizens like criminals?After having procurred a uk visa would checks not have being made on the applicant at the time of the visa application.The misguided notion that non eu citizens will enter the uk,overstay and work illegally is quite laughable,of coarse it happens but not generally with people who have obtained a visa for uk entry legally,yet another shambles from a home secatery that seems intent on targeting and making life a difficult as possible for legal visitors to the uk,as well as attacking the non eu spouses of uk citizens,whilst making no mention of what she plans to do about the thousands of illegal immigrants in the uk.Most non eu citizens could be afforded entry into the uk on a visa upon entry basis without any problems.The island nation of singapore allows this for south east asian visitors without people overstaying or working illegally,and given that singapore is the third most expensive country in the world,with I might add boast a far higher standard of living that we have here in the uk and so could be construed as a prime target for overstay and illegal work,however the vast majority of visitors to singapore given 30 day visas upon arrival do abide by the rules of their visa,which makes the uk visa and border control policies look exactly what they are,totally paranoid.As I myself have a non eu wife,we as i am sure other people are,getting a little fed up with all the uncertainty which the never ending rule changes with regard to visas.We can only hope that common sence and fairness prevails.
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